00:00:02: Hello and welcome to the series games podcast all about playful methods for interactive trainings and facilitation.

00:00:10: Let's get started.

00:00:11: So, Welcome back to the serious game spot cast.

00:00:14: And today I'm honored i'm connected with the calling design school in calling Denmark and i'm Connected With Matthias, Matthias Polsman.

00:00:24: Yeah, we met.

00:00:26: I actually had to do a little bit of research but then i found this email on my ticket from counterplay two thousand and nineteen.

00:00:34: that's the first time that we met.

00:00:36: um...I think We also talked for that because they offered us session And today were talking Because you are back.

00:00:45: It felt like You've been gone For A while Down Under.

00:00:50: you just shared, it was a couple of months.

00:00:52: But Counterplay is also back.

00:00:53: and then... Of course I wrote to you!

00:00:57: I pitched the session.

00:00:59: I'm looking forward to travel to Denmark once again.

00:01:03: And Then i thought..I would love to invite You To The Podcasts and share your wonderful work Your ideas & vision & things that you know.

00:01:13: Just experience with counter play and beyond our dear listeners to see if one or two want to also join me, or join you on the play mission.

00:01:26: And with that welcome to the podcast, Matthias!

00:01:29: Thank you so much Julian.

00:01:31: thank you I'm really happy to be here and i'm so grateful for your kind words about me and counterplay in all of those things.

00:01:41: let's see if we can live up.

00:01:47: We could definitely live up to that.

00:01:49: I mean, me remembering Counterplay was just broadening my not only view it's really broadening the pure... The words are hard to find but opening a door into world of play and nuances.

00:02:16: people who not just do that for living but live it, right?

00:02:22: So play was really transformed in that sense from let's say a line of work something you research to a stance.

00:02:35: I guess we can come through that.

00:02:36: But maybe also the way And we'll have many more ways of putting it.

00:02:49: So that's why I will start with my two typical questions, what should our listeners know about you and how would describe the elevator pitch for counterplay in thirty seconds?

00:03:03: Someone who has never heard about counter play...what must they know?

00:03:09: Okay, thank you.

00:03:10: That's of course a difficult question I think about me and counterplay.

00:03:16: those two things are intertwined in the way And for me The most important thing is that i guess said i'm on this sort of pursuit to live A more playful life?

00:03:30: that I hope, but I can live a more playful life.

00:03:34: But also through my work i can help even just a few people That we could get together and help each other to have more playful lives.

00:03:43: So thats the main catalyst for all of this And for Counterplay it's festival where I started For us to have sense of community Of belonging in a play community so that challenge being playful of holding on to play through our lives as we age, would be perhaps less daunting.

00:04:08: It seems like they give each other a little bit more courage.

00:04:11: when you actually come together in the play community so that we dare hold onto play and insist even in situations where it's not expected or where it's maybe even frowned upon, then we know oh but we're part of this community.

00:04:27: We are not alone and have each other when we aren't together.

00:04:31: And I think that sense of the play community is what you say contribution.

00:04:40: The most important thing for me about Counterplay Is to make eachother more courageous When it comes to holding onto Play.

00:04:49: Yes i remember in The title was playing at the edge, right?

00:04:58: I think

00:04:58: you're right.

00:04:59: Yes yeah and there were lots of interesting.

00:05:03: in fact i remember There was a little TV not documentary but a little tv piece.

00:05:12: I'll link it in the show notes, but let's go back.

00:05:15: Uh i really want to remind till maybe that first moment when you were in a conversation You alone thought about something like A festival or a community.

00:05:28: um can Can you share a little bit?

00:05:30: how?

00:05:30: How would all start it?

00:05:31: yeah

00:05:32: at least i can try.

00:05:33: It's been awhile so may be my memory Just not as accurate as you because he used to be.

00:05:39: But but i think We are around two thousand twelve, twenty thirteen.

00:05:48: And I was working actually back then with digital games game-based learning stuff like that and it was sort of a growing field in our super curious but at some point realized maybe i was more interested in the stuff happens between players rather than the games themselves.

00:06:10: And I couldn't really, you know this took me a little while to figure out but... But i realized that oh maybe it's the play that happens between players.

00:06:18: Maybe sometimes with game or also some time between the player.

00:06:22: So my attention shifted back then from playing experience and playful encounters.

00:06:32: To be honest at point just felt Like I didn't really know anything about play like i knew something about games but it doesn't know so much about playing and my, for some reason.

00:06:44: My intuitive sort of idea was that oh maybe we can create a space where...I need to learn about play!

00:06:54: So that's what is my egoistic.

00:07:00: work with it if I am to do anything with play.

00:07:04: And, and i just figured maybe we can create a space or community an event where more people would join me in learning about play.

00:07:12: so it started from my own need um...and then i just sort of had some very basic ideas i would say at the time..i-I had a feeling that It needed to be playful, like it needs learning about play through play.

00:07:29: Because of course we have probably all attended too many conferences and other kinds of sessions about Play but where Play is too absent.

00:07:39: so that was a principle I knew from the beginning.

00:07:43: We need try to cultivate actually a playful atmosphere at this event.

00:07:49: And then i also knew from start because as an adult when I was interested in play also, and my own life.

00:07:55: So it's like oh this cannot only be for children right?

00:07:58: This needs to be played across the lifespan And-and Also a cross sort of different arenas that we move into across society.

00:08:08: so It need to be In education work life and then sort of public life and in our spare time and everywhere Like every where play could take place.

00:08:20: And i think this is basically what I knew from the beginning, and then I started talking about it.

00:08:25: And sort of talk more and more was kind of maybe a little bit annoying at times because really wanted to do this thing but i didn't know how.

00:08:36: At some point one my friend said that main public library in Orkhus where live said well Matisse sounds like nice idea with play festival or whatever you're talking about You can borrow the library for free.

00:08:49: And then I was like, okay now...I guess i have to try.

00:08:54: Yeah and then I created more or less meaningful invitations for people to contribute.

00:09:00: it always thought of as something that we do together in a way right?

00:09:04: People share their work when they come together.

00:09:07: uh..and from the outset there wasn't- I was really overwhelmed back then and still am That people are so keen to do so much work, to travel to Denmark.

00:09:20: To come either a library or now at design school and share their works in such vibrant manner like they're really passionate.

00:09:28: They want this way of thinking And doing play that exists in the world That was present I would say already from first time which is back in two thousand fourteen.

00:09:48: Yes, yes wonderful!

00:09:51: You called and I assume it grew from artists to academia policy makers...I met so many different disciplines that shared.

00:10:09: as you said what is your Now that you've experienced so many counterplays, So now was the idea.

00:10:18: It happened.

00:10:20: and what are your surprising or magic moments of the Counterplay movement festival?

00:10:31: I think from the outset but it became more clear over the years That when i really been drawn to all things that emerge.

00:10:44: So we schedule, we plan a lot of things.

00:10:47: We have like always too much you could say in the program on the menu.

00:10:52: there are so many things to choose between and all those things are important because they sort of get us going And that give us ideas.

00:11:01: but I think what really comes to matter for me is the unplanned thing.

00:11:05: The things just happen Because people are in spirit And then they need to do this or that.

00:11:11: They needed sort of stop dancing when it was actually not intended, or they had to dress up and make costumes if there wasn't a part session... All these little moments where people somehow hack the festival and do something else.

00:11:28: I think those are the moment which i really cherish.

00:11:32: It matters so much for me both because I see that they show some ownership.

00:11:38: This is not just them passively attending an event that i have organized, That are doing something with the event which was surprising and fun but also because it shows something about who they are And what im really moved by.

00:11:58: people come to this event in Denmark.

00:12:02: a lot of these people there would be strangers And yet they still step into the space and find this playful energy somehow.

00:12:11: At least as we spend some time together, two or three days together... ...the normal facade appearance that when you go in to public spaces it sort of falls away a little bit.

00:12:26: We are not pretending to be something more just people who were there.

00:12:30: without those facades usual distance we could have.

00:12:36: We just allow ourselves to be really present in that moment with each other, and it's sort of a vulnerable position I can never take for granted people will step into but i've seen you so many times when people realize they came maybe to counterplay as professional if you like with the professional interest in play at some point becomes personal who are together and were doing perhaps very silly things because we're playing together, right?

00:13:09: But it points to something or allows us to share something about ourselves that I'm more deep in person.

00:13:15: And i think That is really the magic for me sort of when whenever these little moments happen.

00:13:24: Yes yes...I'll rewind and have a listen once We stop the recording Because maybe that could by itself be part of a definition of play, right?

00:13:34: That we gather that we show up.

00:13:36: We agree to not you know play with the facade because then it will become... Not really I mean obviously not voluntarily but um It would come.

00:13:49: uh A very awkward experience.

00:13:53: But showing and sharing And i remember so many sessions were exactly what you said the presenter was sharing not a fancy tool or framework and their ego, alphabet soup of badges and certificates.

00:14:17: But really what they are passionate about is knowing that time is limited, yeah two to three days but also knowing that's their focus and respecting.

00:14:36: And welcoming.

00:14:39: not only approachable but being wanting to be approached too.

00:14:45: learn connect with others right?

00:14:49: That's lovely!

00:14:51: So now I remember me finding this bird through the library.

00:14:55: Yeah it happened.

00:14:59: So there are two things now, I heard you say on the one hand yes.

00:15:04: The community and then the festival.

00:15:07: so maybe i want to start with it with a community?

00:15:10: Beyond those three days what is something that you observed or something that your proud of?

00:15:20: where's the DNA of counterplay when?

00:15:22: That is

00:15:27: a little tricky, right?

00:15:28: Because it's hard to get hold of what happens when people leave.

00:15:33: And I can only point out some situations where they have shared something with me.

00:15:44: and one person told at the time that he asked in the community if any of you would be willing to share anything from Counterplay.

00:15:55: And there was one person who sort of said it explicitly that, well part is because we do this together and then go all our separate ways over the world.

00:16:06: Right?

00:16:06: But carry a little bit of spirit with us.

00:16:12: so we still feel that play is legitimate.

00:16:19: We're still dare to play Because know are these people out here fairly deep play experiences and connections with.

00:16:29: And because of that, we're maybe a little bit more confident.

00:16:32: it's actually okay to insist on playing in our lives even though most times are not in the community.

00:16:45: so I've heard from several people tell me this in various ways.

00:16:51: Maybe this is the most important thing about it, that we... It's actually hard to be very courageous.

00:16:58: About play if you're only on your own and If You Always Have To Fight For Play On Your Own.

00:17:05: So You Need Friends And You Need A Community for That.

00:17:09: There Is Something About How Being Together Really Intensely For a Few Days It Creates A Sense Of Community That Reaches Beyond The Event itself.

00:17:20: So I had, now you mentioned my trip to Australia earlier.

00:17:25: One of the first people that met when i was there is my friend Troy who also had counterplay back in two thousand ninety and this was like almost four years later.

00:17:34: And he said to me hey we've been talking about doing counter play here at Melbourne!

00:17:43: But it travels on.

00:17:48: People don't really forget about it, because I think there are such meaningful experiences and relations that we have with each other when you play.

00:17:57: And they're not...I do want to make them sound too complicated or difficult to achieve, but if we give in those play-experiences where we allow ourselves just be present together then i think this stays with us.

00:18:17: For me, it gives me hope and definitely also give me the courage to speak up for play in other situations outside of that event.

00:18:27: Yes yes well...for me when we show-up..when we are present as human beings ready to show up and willing to show off then is like a pure connection, a pure relationship for that moment.

00:18:47: That can happen and it's way more blasting and enduring than again if we would just meet exchange business cards or be on our facade.

00:18:59: I'll show you my MBA then you'd show me your PhD.

00:19:05: So yeah, got ya!

00:19:07: And remember...and still i will send her way, but of course I still when i look at the little fox that i gave to my son.

00:19:19: Of course i remember Foxy and hope Foxy is doing well!

00:19:23: And um...that's good wonderful.

00:19:29: Um..I mean you mentioned it shouldn't sound too complicated.

00:19:41: how would A newcomer to the festival.

00:19:47: You just released a program, I'll link it in the show notes and all good There's a lot.

00:19:53: you already mentioned that It can feel overwhelming.

00:19:56: there might be the fear of missing out Just by looking at the poster And seeing wow How would you invite a newcomer To approach their first visit In Kolding now?

00:20:11: This is something of course that I've been thinking about a lot over the years and probably haven't gotten it completely right but i am really always hoping, we are trying to make this also intriguing for those who were not already in the community because its important.

00:20:32: New people step in, like it cannot become just a closed exclusive club.

00:20:37: So we want that and at the same time We're trying to push sort of the envelope or The idea of what can play B?

00:20:47: And I think sometimes this is a balance Like do you wanna make It really easy to understand but Do also wants to be a little bit radical and sort of go a little bit too far in some ways, making it a little to daunting or intimidating.

00:21:05: Some people have told me that the way you write about them talk about this is a little but intimidating.

00:21:12: so we're trying always both in writing on call with updates at least make it sort of

00:21:23: personal

00:21:24: and try to build up what is hopefully experienced as a fairly safe space where you can step in.

00:21:34: As long as your human, fit-in perfectly... You don't really need such a long experience with clay especially not professional capacity.

00:21:43: I mean that everybody can step into this space.

00:21:48: And I've seen a lot over the years that because the community is really kind and we try from outside to say it's all voluntary.

00:21:57: We support any way of participating, then it seems like those who are new actually find their ways in sort-of become safe and confident for what was initially for people sometimes myself included really confusing and a little crazy.

00:22:20: And you know, many things going on but I think there's still something to be worked with in terms of the whole build up to the festival.

00:22:29: like if people come to The Festival then i'm not concerned Like them it will work Then they will find their way.

00:22:36: But do we communicate about it In ways that are alienating some People?

00:22:40: I am pretty sure That We Do to manage.

00:22:49: Yes, I was just thinking i'll pull up some pictures and add them to the podcast.

00:22:55: you know?

00:22:56: um some podcast players do show pictures while we talk?

00:23:00: And yes how do ultimately describe an experience?

00:23:05: right it's like describing a game right playful encounter okay what is?

00:23:13: And then the moment it happened, It's gone already.

00:23:16: Right?

00:23:16: So so The next encounter will be different.

00:23:18: ultimately because you are depleted or someone new is joining Or something else happen and we're in a new state In a new New way of thinking or feeling at that very moment.

00:23:30: Yes Maybe that video could also help.

00:23:38: And then always reaching out to someone who has maybe been there, right?

00:23:43: Who has own experience... I remember portraying players of the community and how they contribute is in a nice way definitely conversation starter Wonderful.

00:24:03: So tell me before I ask you about the festival, okay?

00:24:07: Again we can go through the specs and the program And You Can Share a little bit more of that.

00:24:11: But then you mentioned just on the side like oh in your community We're not alone there's someone else also fighting for play.

00:24:19: i wanted to Ask you when do you think...I mean..we agree Play as learning, play is life,play is experimentation etc.

00:24:29: Okay!We can pull up some definitions but When did it become that thing we had to fight for?

00:24:38: And you said in your welcoming, helping others to live a more playful life.

00:24:48: But why and when do we start or see the need... Or when does the need emerge?

00:24:58: putting just that question together while I'm thinking but Playful moments, playful encounters play in general.

00:25:09: And then what's on the other side if we achieve that?

00:25:12: So you helped someone to live a more playful life.

00:25:17: What is it for us

00:25:19: all?

00:25:20: I probably can't answer That sort of.

00:25:24: when did that become important?

00:25:26: but i think there has been some like play used common actually and also for adults, like going back then.

00:25:36: it was something that we probably all did in various ways.

00:25:40: And I think players become marginalized in society For a lot of reasons Like the idea is to be able control ourselves really rational individuals who can make rational arguments and sort of be in, keep our emotions in control.

00:26:04: And all that like there are some ideas around this but both come from Western philosophy But also has been sort of ingrained In more neoliberal trends than such about.

00:26:16: we need to optimize.

00:26:17: We need two to sort of yeah always Also know where were going?

00:26:22: I know what would get out things.

00:26:26: And I think plays, it doesn't really fit within that optimization.

00:26:31: Those sort of individual optimizations and optimization of outcomes and results.

00:26:38: so play is kind to me a little force of resistance in the way.

00:26:45: there are other ways being human, other ways of being alive.

00:26:51: And for me those are ways that are more relational and more unpredictable about being in the moment with what emerges.

00:26:59: so I think we need to fight for it because there is a lot of dynamics sort-of trends in society which makes things harder That reduces space for being together and play for ways without knowing where it's going or what comes out of how we can measure.

00:27:23: So in that sense, It is up against some strong forces... I think we need antidotes also players kind a little bit of an antidote to some of those modern Western ways.

00:27:39: Yes, I

00:27:43: was just thinking it's on a book release here in Berlin where the argument was play is literally a cultural asset and we should see as art.

00:27:59: As you mentioned right?

00:28:00: It doesn't really fit into that work optimization flow line.

00:28:10: neither does art Right?

00:28:12: Um, neither does do a lot of things that we do in our free time.

00:28:19: And even if we eventually become better or not but that might not be the goal on the first hand.

00:28:26: and still when I was thinking over question what how does it connect to work you know and then the economy besides being at business?

00:28:35: that's i think is different podcast episode.

00:28:38: But um Still when designing an organization, learning etc.

00:28:49: We do need playful moments obviously and playful encounters because that's where also we draw inspiration from or new ideas emerge right?

00:29:00: Where the unplanned can happen.

00:29:02: not only you know a dark horse form a design thing approach, but just those moments where we can meet show up and then back to what happens at the festival.

00:29:14: Well, we can show it as human beings in really talk without that facade—what need is?

00:29:21: What concern is with fear or emotion connected into something happening or not

00:29:26: happening….

00:29:28: I was wondering... What does fighting for play look like?

00:29:34: I mean, not everyone can now start a festival or write the book about it.

00:29:40: Maybe maybe i got in wrong from the outset by talking about fighting because that's what he is right?

00:29:50: But this literally standing up for... I hear you, it's really standing up.

00:29:55: It is putting in on the table and removing a blind spot that play also available to us as species... ...to move-on?

00:30:09: At least for me….

00:30:12: …I think what has been realized both by myself and people who have worked with this work.

00:30:17: there are actually a lot of ways where we can do this work And i would be very reluctant make the recipe and say like this is what you mean to do, be a proper play activist or whatever title that I have given myself some years ago.

00:30:35: And i think it's actually important if we want Play To Have Better Conditions To Thrive In Society which is often when I sort of tell my self.

00:30:47: That Is What We Need To Do?

00:30:48: We need to create better conditions for Play To Thribe.

00:30:51: Then I think that there are so many things we can do.

00:30:56: Some would probably just figure out how could they create small pockets, small opportunities and small invitations to play wherever they were?

00:31:09: Whether at their workplace or in the local communities... Could they make it possible from time-to-time?

00:31:17: to meet through play or have small, playful encounters.

00:31:20: I think that's often a really meaningful place to start and we shouldn't underestimate the kind of work local on-the ground actually creating opportunities for playing.

00:31:32: it can be setting up a game just like little silly encounters.

00:31:38: there are so many ways my friend Bart from the Netherlands who insists on their blowing big soap bubbles, like always create a sense of wonder.

00:31:47: And I think all those actions are actually sort of standing up for play and insisting that play has place in our lives...and then off course.

00:31:57: i also think it's interesting to to talk about it as we do here, research on and try to understand what is even though we're bound fail like you never fully.

00:32:11: Understand play.

00:32:12: but I think if we tried keep sort of cultivating our language in thinking pushing then that will also help us.

00:32:24: so the more than you can make visible to make it felt.

00:32:30: I think the felt part is super important like when people have the experience of play in their bodies, It's a different conversation we can have about play also than if you just sort-of talk and stay on our heads as often do right?

00:32:46: So If We Can Create Opportunities For People To Have The Experience That Play This Like Meaningful Fun All Of The Things That It Is And That Its Legitimate And then from there we can do research, have conversations.

00:33:02: We can spread the word and invite more people in.

00:33:05: but actually I think that play experiences are a core element of standing up for play.

00:33:16: Absolutely!

00:33:17: I was also thinking looking at a couple notes... you know those playful encounters and moments, we have different labels for them in different occasions.

00:33:30: Of course the business world it would be a brainstorming or innovation workshop our creative workshops And let's go and walk and then have conversations right to embody something.

00:33:42: so just different labels.

00:33:44: but if could also see yes with research thought leaders with yes moments where we talk about play that oh at bottom line, there are some similarities.

00:34:06: Oh bottom-line is yes we're showing up or meeting as...oh yes!

00:34:10: We agree for a different type of rules than the ones born into or socialized in, grew up and working for.

00:34:22: And now something else can happen within myself that I might not show at work.

00:34:39: I mean, there's so many things.

00:34:51: And I'm looking at the time too.

00:34:53: but just a couple of quotes here right?

00:34:57: Maybe i'll ask you another theoretical question here.

00:35:01: So when was your playful life Right?

00:35:03: When Was Your Last Playful Moment?

00:35:08: and really am looking for something where he said wow maybe something Where You Surprised Yourself Interesting, yeah.

00:35:18: Well you could really not only feel but also reflect on it.

00:35:21: or maybe in that moment where he thought oh I've never done this before!

00:35:29: Can you share one of those?

00:35:30: Even though i'm fortunate both with counterplay and my job to work with play then... ...I have days when its absent.

00:35:41: So I'm really trying to cherish whenever it happens, also in a work setting.

00:35:46: But the first thing that came to me is my maybe most recent obsession... ...that i've been surprised by because little over a year ago we got a horse and then there was a pony And then our first horse got a foal so now suddenly had three horses.

00:36:06: I would actually say that i've been playing a lot with those horses over this past year to get to know them, figure out what it means to live with horses and there's been so many surprises in that.

00:36:19: It has really made me think about the human role in relation animals for instance just because of these little silly playful encounters maybe especially with the foal very playful still stealing my cap and doing all sorts of silly things.

00:36:39: And I'm just playing along, so that's really a recurring sort-of thing that i do every day.

00:36:46: the horses remind me everyday when i go to them whether it goes feed or hang out with.

00:36:54: they remind me to play in various ways.

00:36:57: And of course I really appreciate that, both because i appreciate any invitation to play but it's just a different... It provokes my thinking about human play when this close to big animals also insist on playing.

00:37:18: That would be one example that I talk way too much about the Hoses these days, so always bring them up.

00:37:27: But but i also really appreciate you know...I have this regularly These little encounters with Camilla my wife With with my friends a lot of my colleagues You now there are just these little sort silly moments or small exchanges, a little comment in the otherwise serious email.

00:37:50: All these little sort of cracks you know because we're all also trying to be professional and serious but then it sneaks through!

00:37:59: And people have all this little ways showing their playfulness.

00:38:03: that is really maybe one my favorite things like where shows even though maybe we try to hide it a little bit, or maybe we tried to fit in and be that serious adult but... We cannot hide completely.

00:38:19: And I just really love them because every opening is sort of the possibility for play to grow and take over.

00:38:32: Yes, wonderful.

00:38:33: Maybe Matthias, I'll say that word of unhiding play rather than fighting for a play right?

00:38:38: Like okay pointing to it and maybe pointing to the other side Right off the metal saying oh well this is very serious now.

00:38:48: And

00:38:50: of course it's a, like when I say serious.

00:38:53: It is certain kind of seriousness right?

00:38:56: We all know this sort of adult professional seriousness because i always insist that the most serious and ambitious people are playpeople Like.

00:39:07: they're super-serious but their series in playful ways.

00:39:11: so we also need to somehow overcome this dichotomy between play in seriousness because it's only a certain kind of seriousness that doesn't really fit within play.

00:39:23: I

00:39:24: agree.

00:39:24: and now this podcast is called the Serious Games Podcast, not sure if we'll change its name at one point but yeah actually was having discussion on that name just by naming it series games forces us to, oh then there's the game.

00:39:46: and in a serious games like no this is all playful moments, playful invitations.

00:39:53: And yes sometimes they come with a board instead of rules but then some times not.

00:39:59: so yeah it's

00:40:01: true

00:40:03: wow walk us through these years festival.

00:40:09: So I know its first time that will happen in colding.

00:40:14: So not the library anymore, even though I can totally recommend to drive up to our host just look at the library and spend time there.

00:40:26: Knowing that they also have a playroom upstairs.

00:40:32: but there's lots of other wonderful things you could do here.

00:40:37: What is this program like?

00:40:43: Resonate it with your invitation and what is maybe something also that that emerged or changed, or was improved or optimized for this year.

00:40:54: Well first I want to of course agree With you and say that dog one the library we used To have counterplay remains a wonderful place And there's part Of me then its little bit sad but It doesn't take Place there because it Was fantastic venue for a play festival and it was also an extremely supportive just organization.

00:41:20: And the people who worked there.

00:41:21: so I would have loved to continue that.

00:41:23: but at the same time, It also made a lot of sense to move The Festival To The Design School where we had a lab for play design and then MA in Design to Play.

00:41:32: So it fits really well.

00:41:34: Also here Um...and it has been-it is still sort basically trying to figure out what that move means and how it's gonna play out.

00:41:45: So, so... It is a big experiment even though if the sixth time we do this still has been an experiment!

00:41:51: And I'm not sure whether i can or will or I don't know, am able to sort of point two very specific sessions in the program.

00:42:09: But i think one thing first that has surprised me and really overwhelmed me in a great way like really given me the energy to work on this again is that it's been seven years!

00:42:23: And then we put out this fairly...I dunno strange call call with both some really serious sort of academic stuff and super silly playful stuff.

00:42:37: And we merge it all together, insist that you can coexist then?

00:42:42: We just sort of cross our fingers in hope to resonate someone.

00:42:47: Then does apparently because he did get like more or less as many submissions is used again the past even though For some, it's a new thing.

00:42:59: Like its almost like we start over right?

00:43:03: So there is the energy in the play community and the play communities still alive And also growing because we've got a lot of submissions from people who haven't been here before.

00:43:13: so I think this wonderful thing in itself that We can sort Not I wouldn't say the call for play that we made was not accessible.

00:43:26: It's a little bit sort of demanding off people to think with us and to play with this and to actually set up really step into that, but people did that in so many different ways because again like i would send the past is it's really a wildly diverse program an ad we're trying to cultivate.

00:43:47: these are sometimes they were trying to cause this landscape of play that you can go exploring during those days.

00:43:55: And I think we're doing

00:43:58: it again

00:43:59: like creating this landscape where some moments are shared between all us but most the time people will explore and go on these little adventures because they have parallel breakout sessions, and some of them are role-playing activities or urban sessions where you go out into public space and play.

00:44:22: Some are drawing sort of playful drawing sessions, some building a den to hide away from the world session... ...some are conversation games, some are poetic playful writing sessions.

00:44:37: They're really all over the place And maybe more leaning towards adults who work with children But a lot of them are more towards just adults who would like to bring play into their lives.

00:44:55: In some cases, for adults that want to be in the work-lines and help them with organizational issues.

00:45:04: as you talked about creative processes but I will say it's a lot fit.

00:45:10: this also really excites me A lot of it is really sort for people who want a more playful way of life, which as I have already revealed this also my own main motivation.

00:45:26: So that's very nice to see what seems to resonate and not any instrumental quality.

00:45:35: or can we get out-of-play?

00:45:39: How do we become more playful people, how to live more playful lives?

00:45:44: And maybe also like I've tried say over the years that part of this is how can we cultivate more playful societies.

00:45:55: That's quite a lot in our program and i'm very excited about it.

00:46:01: Wonderful, wonderful.

00:46:03: Once again I'll link the program.

00:46:06: and then with the program you know everyone can look at these sessions The hosts who are facilitating or sharing in that session And ultimately That's already part of the play community that one can meet In Colding many more.

00:46:27: So, kadee!

00:46:29: Also, give us the specs and size just a little bit so that we can have more concrete ideas.

00:46:35: So what is the date?

00:46:37: Even though I will link everything...

00:46:40: It's from May seven to May nine And it's Thursday Friday Saturday.

00:46:49: Those days are always same as those days.

00:46:54: Yeah, two days full on playing together where we every day.

00:47:01: We sort of have some shared moments in the morning and afternoon And then we had break out sessions with I think most cases five parallel tracks that you could go into from.

00:47:11: so there's always something like for all different play tastes.

00:47:16: There is also hopefully always something appeals to everyone while we don't.

00:47:22: No, yet then we're sort of aiming expecting hoping for around the same size.

00:47:29: Which was always a hundred and fifty one hundred sixty seven years something like that maybe a little yeah some somewhere in that ballpark ride.

00:47:41: And it just means that if were nice big but not that big.

00:47:46: people who have three days In May playing together basically All the time, right?

00:47:53: We have things scheduled from morning to evening.

00:47:59: And I think that is actually... The time we spent playing together during those three days in May was most important thing more than any one contribution of us can make.

00:48:11: Wonderful!

00:48:15: What's your favorite quote

00:48:18: around

00:48:19: Play and playful encounters.

00:48:23: Oh, there are so many.

00:48:25: There is too many I thought about earlier in this conversation we have And also considering that you're in Germany That's just German philosophy instead.

00:48:37: but he was called.

00:48:38: I don't know if it's pronounced right?

00:48:40: But Eugene think He writes about play and he has this one very short sentence where he says, Play gives us the present.

00:48:50: And I think that's a beautiful way to think about it... That what play does is reminds us of being present in this here-and now.

00:49:01: It only ever really works if we dare be fully present together!

00:49:11: many quotes about play that I really like, and the play gives us a present.

00:49:16: But yes it feels as if we could add another fifty minutes to this conversation but also feel right too slowly close into just recap of A. That unhiding play through meeting other unheiders or players meeting the play community, but definitely looking at the program and seeing who's out there.

00:49:48: Knowing that you're not alone when doing this no matter in which context or target group personally.

00:50:03: noticing and cherishing all those moments where we are present, especially in these days for whatever that means.

00:50:14: I recently started paternity leave right?

00:50:18: And sometimes say this is the moment Play became very serious, right?

00:50:24: Because that's the thing.

00:50:27: To see a world through different eyes and then teaching to learn all those things is also wonderful and playful.

00:50:40: Wow!

00:50:43: Any final famous... Wait a minute let me ask you one-one thing because sometimes I close.

00:50:53: There's a lot already in what you said with being present.

00:50:59: With inviting and cracking, leaving room for playful moments and encounters.

00:51:10: but What makes it work?

00:51:13: I mean those playful encounters when two human beings are more And you even mentioned, other species that could be part of provoking or inspiring or reminding us about our playful soul.

00:51:32: What really makes it work?

00:51:34: what's the magic sauce... Even though I know research cannot fully answer this question but every one of us in the community has a piece-of-the-answer.

00:51:48: And at one point we must put it together, so what's your current answer on?

00:51:54: What is the magic sauce or the magical ingredients of playfulness and

00:52:01: encounters?".

00:52:02: Of course this is an impossible question!

00:52:04: I agree that all have our little pieces of the puzzle... important to consider.

00:52:12: But I think for me, of course there are a few things and i think we need to be able to set up space where play is safe enough because all kinds of things might happen when you play.

00:52:26: so we need it to be safe enough from the outset And...I don't know exactly how do this other than sort really trying help people feel safe in that space to create conditions for this not be super stressful, super intimidating but we actually feel okay.

00:52:47: This is something you can step into and voluntarily.

00:52:50: so of course make it an invitation So the people might accept that invitation.

00:52:58: And then I've also been very interested.

00:53:02: how do Invite like?

00:53:06: what are the materials that we can use also?

00:53:09: The physical materials?

00:53:11: how do We bring the body into play?

00:53:13: I got i have this big interest in these sort of John playgrounds adventure Playgrounds Also, where there all sorts of material then they're surprising and That somehow also do something to us or push push Us back.

00:53:26: so.

00:53:27: I think for me a lot of it is also getting the body involved In surprising ways.

00:53:35: that helps us move out of our heads, it helps to sort let go off the rational argument and all that because.

00:53:44: Our bodies respond in maybe less rational ways sometimes right?

00:53:49: So how do we create a safe space where we allow our body is to do that?

00:53:52: I think thats for me big part of it.

00:53:57: And then yeah there are so many other things but the setting up, the invitations.

00:54:03: The way that you frame it in a way where... Where is at least hopefully potentially meaningful and challenging for people to step into that space once we get going?

00:54:17: And I think there are lot of sort happens in this moment but its initiation sometimes difficult.

00:54:23: Wonderful!

00:54:24: Wow!

00:54:26: To all our listeners.

00:54:29: if you want meet Matthias and the community, talk about how to have more playful lives.

00:54:37: And how to unhide playful moments in not only experience but explore that landscape of play and playfulness Definitely have a look at counterplay or just reach out.

00:54:57: Not everyone has to come to calling now, but of course you should reach out to Matias and other members and start that conversation.

00:55:07: share back I think is also an important thing.

00:55:12: Matias well thank you so much for being on the podcast.

00:55:16: Thank You so much Julian for inviting me in creating this space and thinking about play.

00:55:24: I think this is also a very valuable contribution to standing up for plays, so i'm very happy to have been a small part of that

00:55:33: wonderful.

00:55:34: thank you.

00:55:34: um yes to all our listeners there's many more episodes out communities and conferences out there, right?

00:55:46: And festivals out there.

00:55:48: If there's anything you need to know or want to discuss I'll link your contact details Matias.

00:55:56: again You can always reach out To me.

00:55:59: until then have many more playful moments Bye-bye!