00:00:11: Julian: So welcome back to the series games podcast. And today, once again, only Berlin in the house. I'm connected to, in fact, the same kids that I live in, Lichtenberg, with Gaëlle and with Charlottenburg. Also very nice on the other side of the town with Eli. well, Eli and I, we've met during a meetup a couple of weeks ago, and you were sharing more about the game that you facilitate. And then we figured out, well, we should do a podcast episode about that journey that you take your participants on. Now, I had to use Google Translate for the website because it's all in French. I'll put the link in the show notes for all the French speakers who keep this episode in English. And the glorious 2030s. Okay. So for me in a nutshell, and you have to correct me in a second, pessimism to optimism, you know, not getting stuck on all those risk management lists, but then looking for signals in a different way. That's what I got from the website. And I really want to dive into how you make it work for the participants and then what they get out of it. So first of all, welcome to the podcast, Gaëlle and Eli.

00:01:38: Eli: Thank you for that.

00:01:41: Julian: And here are my first two traditional questions, I must say. What should our listeners know about you and what's your elevator pitch for the glorious 2030s?

00:01:53: Gaëlle: Okay. should I start Eli? Okay. What they should know about us is that we are both, Eli and I, facilitating this workshop and we represent almost a hundred percent of the German facilitators of this workshop. We're both based in Berlin and yeah, starting from a a French initiatives, we are slowly spreading this great workshop around in the world. and we have the chance to both be in Berlin, so it's very convenient to work together and we love to do the workshop together. It's always a bit different and a bit more special when there are two people. So I think that's yeah, one important thing to know about us.

00:02:38: Julian: Wonderful. And Eli, what about you? What should our listeners know about you?

00:02:43: Eli: I think we are very open also with the people we want to work with. So actually this is a journey for everybody. It's very international, it's very intercultural, and it can take place almost everywhere. Like a real journey.

00:03:03: Julian: lot of mysterious lines we can unpack in the next 60 minutes. What's your pitch? Was that a pitch already?

00:03:12: Gaëlle: No, I think we can give maybe a bit more information. Do you want to go on, Ed, or should I?

00:03:18: Eli: Positive images of the future and collective intelligence and fun a lot of fun and a lot of optimism like training your optimistic muscle. It's what we do.

00:03:34: Julian: Yes. Yes, great.

00:03:37: Gaëlle: Yeah. Yeah, I think we are right now we have so many ideas of how everything could go bad and I mean we have a lot of proof also of how it's going bad, but we are so much missing how it could go well and what could go well and what could be exciting about the future and we really want to tap into the creativity of people. What if we imagine a future that makes you excited, that makes you motivated, that makes you want to live it because you're gonna live it anyway. And this is really where the podcast is trying to go. Podcast sorry, the workshop.

00:04:09: Julian: wonderful. Hopefully also the podcast. mean, you never know. like, turn this into a very dark podcast. But again, I hear, yes, we love to prepare for the worst case scenarios, right? What could go wrong? And then we enter a room and then we're like, what can go wrong? Right? So where was the, I think in German, I know my... co-author Anne, she used that word like the Gut Fall. So prepare for the good fall. And not only for the worst case. Wonderful. Well, before we get into how you invite your participants, a little bit about the backstory. So you mentioned you are the two only

00:04:44: Gaëlle: And that's

00:04:59: Julian: facilitators of this game in Germany. It originated in France, but how did you get in contact with it? And when did you learn about it or even decided, yeah, that's something we want to take into consideration and facilitate.

00:05:17: Eli: I would say Gaëlle you go on because Gaëlle actually I like took took me on her flight. Like I came afterwards. I was like

00:05:27: Julian: And

00:05:28: Gaëlle: Yes. I was part of a of a project that wanted to travel through Europe to talk about desirable futures. And to do that we wanted to have like popular education workshops or initiatives. and with the people from that project we kinda like browse around to see what kind of workshop we're going in that direction. And this is where I someone mentioned at some point the Glorious Two Thousand Thirties. And so I attend one big workshop in Lyon in France with like I don't know fifty people, a bit before Christmas, three or four years ago. And yeah, with another person of the group and we were like, Okay, we want this workshop and because we go in Europe we need this in English and it wasn't existing in English at this point or just briefly. So we talked already with the people up from the NGO and we were like, Okay, can we translate it together so that we could use it. and this is how it started. After this project, I came back to Berlin because it was like a a couple of month project. And there I was like, well, I will keep on doing that. And then other people from the project also spread it around. So like in Spain, in Hungary, no, it's like Austria also. And then yeah, Ailey knocked at my door, someone called

00:06:53: Eli: Yeah, on my side I was that time working as a volunteer in an NGO for plastic like against plastic pollution and we were living in a boat with a whole community and the whole team and we needed some support because it's it's not a it's not an easy topic. So one friend has the idea, let's let's organize this workshop and I was then like introduced first time in this workshop trying to be motivated again to make great sensibilization and a few times passed and I moved to Berlin I was like okay how do I how Can I be activist a second time in another country? What is with this workshop kind of facilitated it as my activistic tool? And then I look on the map and I was like, there is a red point in Berlin. It's my red

00:08:00: Julian: Yes. Wonderful. Okay. So you took that workshop with the founders or with the creators and is this still an ongoing refinement? you in a facilitation community, you meet every now and then or at least, you know, feedback what's working and then, okay.

00:08:29: Gaëlle: Definitely. And what I really love about this NGO is that it's they really tell us often that this is like an open tool. Do whatever you want with it. Make it work for yourself, make it work for the participant, make it work for the setup, for the context and try out, play outs and then share what works, what doesn't and we have like a so international community with the all the facilitators outside of France. And we often share like new ideas or new cool stuff that we tried. Super recently we developed a bunch of new cards or like new add-ons that could go to the game because we were curious to try that to see how it could influence the participant and maybe go more into what we think is interesting for their experience. And this is so enjoyable. Yeah. They are very open to any ideas. and this is really cool.

00:09:20: Julian: Mm-hmm. Cool. And tell me, what does this game solve uniquely for you? What did you see or explore? Again, before we dive deeper into the mechanics and then how it works. you went through, I understood you went through a workshop with this method, with this game. And then you said, wow, this is so powerful. I want to use this in my tool set. But of course you also have experience with lots of other workshops and setups and games or methods. What was so unique about the Glorious 2030s for you personally?

00:10:09: Eli: I think it's it's because it's let on the hand of the participant what's what will happen. It's not much of moderation and it's very very resourceful in the way like you come in

00:10:30: Julian: Hmm.

00:10:31: Eli: Let's say it's after a day of work, you come, you registered, you're like, I I hope it will be nice and you come out, you have more energy than before. It's like my feeling. Like who is it?

00:10:46: Julian: And wherever you go.

00:10:47: Gaëlle: Yeah, I really relate to what Eli just said. It's it's really it's soul fulfilling. I I actually do facilitate also to bring some hope in my heart, you know? Yes, yes. It really makes you connect again with my god. Being alive is such a gift. And it can be incredible. Every time I end this workshop I'm like, my god, the future can be amazing and it will. And having this feeling not only just yourself in your mind but out loud with other people after drawing the whole society and how it could work, it is so incredibly powerful. It really makes me again so much more like agentful. I don't know if this word exists, but like full of agency. and willing and able to see what I can do, what I can change and where and how. And it also it's It's super joyful and super creative, so you you have a lot I don't know, it bubbles again and it's yeah, I feel like I need that regularly.

00:11:55: Julian: Wonderful, wonderful. Well, let's give our listeners at least the first, you know, audio teaser of the workshop. If you're going to run it, what do need to prepare? Let's start with the logistics. What do you take? What type of setup do you need in the room also?

00:12:13: Eli: We want the people to feel comfortable and we will also move in this room but we still have like a big table where a little group can can work together. So we set up the workshop in different groups of six, seven people and then they need papers. They need pencils, we need a script at every table like somebody who will listen carefully of the happenings. And we have Spielbrett.

00:12:51: Julian: Yes. Like a board, yeah. So that comes with the game. Is it a large one? Actually, if your podcast player supports pictures, look at it now. I will make sure that we somehow put a picture there of the board. Cool.

00:12:58: Gaëlle: Okay. Yeah, it's pretty low tech. Like everything that they mentioned, you basically just n need a bunch of papers. Pencils. And if we had I think if we were to play with the minimum material, we would just need so some cards at the end that you need to look at because the text printed on it is interesting. Outside of that, everything can be also without material, I would say.

00:13:23: Julian: OK. Got you, got you.

00:13:47: Eli: It's a lot of talking.

00:13:49: Julian: Okay, lots of talking. Wonderful. So I was about to ask, so the groups of six and seven, so you could scale it. What's the max size? I think for two foot.

00:14:01: Gaëlle: Facilitators we would go to maybe twenty-four, like four or five tables.

00:14:08: Julian: Yeah, 445 tables. Okay, got you. And then besides the scribe, the role, the scribe, are there any other roles or... things that need to be set up in that table group of six to seven people.

00:14:27: Gaëlle: If we if we go like for more seven tables, then we would kinda have a a sub moderator in each table because the two of us won't have like the time and attention dedication to go to each table like soon enough or to spend enough time. So maybe if you have like some people that either know the workshop already or know how to facilitate workshops, maybe you give them this

00:14:28: Eli: We

00:14:37: Julian: Okay.

00:14:54: Gaëlle: Task, let's say there is also within the game you have like a card explaining kind of what are like the key points of that role. But we don't really often use it.

00:15:05: Eli: Yeah, and we gave them at the beginning the agency to self like I don't know like to self-regulate themselves like because we have few we have three cards. There are the three three rules of our workshop. Like once please don't speak too much, share the floor. So it's like yellow cards at football play. Okay, yeah. So there is also they have the responsibility also on their they carry the response set they have their responsibility.

00:15:54: Julian: Yes, yes. And what are the other two cards? The other two rules.

00:15:58: Eli: Yeah, please don't be pessimistic. We are in the two thousand thirties, so if you want to speak with like sheep, with fishes, if you want to have like a non-verbal communication with animals, it's possible. So play optimistic. We are dreaming right now. Yeah. And

00:16:17: Julian: Okay, there you go.

00:16:26: Eli: We are in the two thousand thirties, so it's not like I hope I could be a very good dancer. It's like like no, I I am. I'm actually am. I'm dancing for the Parisian ballads also right now in the summer. Yeah.

00:16:44: Julian: All right, that signal card with the, you know, share the floor, is there one card per table or does every participant get one card?

00:16:59: Gaëlle: No, you have the three cards on every table and basically just tell them to use them.

00:17:02: Julian: Every table, Okay, wonderful. Cool. Anything else in the setup? we the table, the big table, the table groups, the cards, the materials, notebooks. Snacks. Snacks, healthy snacks.

00:17:15: Gaëlle: Snacks. Yeah.

00:17:21: Julian: There you go. Keep them fueled. What's your favorite snack?

00:17:26: Gaëlle: Student future. Honestly, like nuts. Yeah. Actually you're right. Yeah. Last time we worked so well, Eddie, you're so smart. Yes.

00:17:40: Julian: Okay, and how does it start? mean, what is your invitation? Like the first couple of steps that you, know, depending on, you know, who's in the room. And maybe you have a concrete example that you share a little bit about, but when everyone is in the room, they're settled in, opened up their chocolate or chalent and foot that they looked at the car, they're, okay, they're just arriving and, you know, floors are yours and how... How do you invite them to engage and what do know, say or do and what are they asked to start with?

00:18:17: Gaëlle: We always start with like a big circle with everybody because we want them to feel that we are one group and then that their table is one group. But there is really those two membranes, let's say. So we start to take care of this one. And we always start with a round of sharing names, pronouns and also one experience with your five senses that you did in the last day. And this is already to put them in an experience kind of mood. And if we have enough time we also ask ask them one thing they look forward next week. So that you're already in the body and you're already in the looking forward to. And also it's a very cute way to share things that are joyful. and so it already set like a light fun tone, something a bit playful, a bit silly, or like not too serious. And it it's a bit personal but not overwhelmingly personal. Yes. And we go around with this. And it's already going in a lot of different directions. So it's it's start to spread the creativity and the yeah, opening something.

00:19:30: Julian: Lovely. When do you explain or just carry on? My question that I had was, when do you explain the whole setup and how the ways are working in this room? after the welcoming and then they settled in. What happens next after the intro?

00:19:51: Eli: we have a very short presentation of the workshop. So we say okay, it's it's was created in France, for instance, and we are a very big community, and we will also love you to join if you're happy to to take part and if you want to explore more with us. And then we have this moments where we

00:20:13: Julian: Mm-hmm.

00:20:21: Eli: Like take inside in the state of the world. So it's maybe a very serious moment where we say, okay, it's it's not very, very fun right now what's happening. But that's how we can we can link with the concept of utopia. And then we will explain.

00:20:36: Julian: you

00:20:45: Eli: What is Utopia and what is the function of Utopia? Because Utopia to believe in a beautiful future, it's very functional. It make us agent because we want to move into this beautiful dreamed world. Dreamt world. So that the presentation. So we will present that everything and go through like changes of timeline we will meditate and they will travel so we are now in the 2026 and through this meditation we move on 27 28 29 2030 what actually a concept is because it's a new world it's basically everything is new everything is like reborn

00:21:19: Julian: Mm-hmm.

00:21:46: Eli: And through this introspection they are now prepared to rethink on our life and to also project themselves what I am doing and who I am in this new world. Yeah. And now we really entered the workshop.

00:22:06: Julian: Mm-hmm. Hmm.

00:22:11: Gaëlle: We make sure that it's not in four years. It's it's when we manage to create a society that is more sustainable, yeah, more caring and more joyful. So we we're really trying to make this shift of we are now yeah in the utopia as Eddie said exactly. also we make sure to create like a frame of collective intelligence with the participants, so a couple of rules that we can all agree on, share the floor that we already mentioned. using the yes and mood which is I build on top of your idea. we have active listening, we have

00:22:50: Eli: Be careful.

00:22:51: Gaëlle: Yeah. yeah, I'd be curious, exactly. Also sovereignty, we really want to it's again something about agency. We want people to just be able to leave the room if they need to do whatever they need, come back. Yeah, they have full powers. and we make sure that yeah, we agree on those common rules that are always visible. Yes. Just to make sure that it flows easily.

00:22:53: Julian: Hmm. Okay. Arriving in Utopia. What's the first thing that I do then?

00:23:21: Eli: You will be answering three questions. Like what do you do in your days? What what is your what is your everyday life? How do you care for your relationships? And how do you how do you contribute to this new society, which is

00:23:38: Julian: Okay.

00:23:50: Eli: which is fair, green, sustainable.

00:23:57: Julian: Mm-hmm.

00:23:58: Gaëlle: What we also like to do during the meditation is that we give an example of what we are doing, Eli and I. And this already kinda like set the tone of what could be imagined imagined by the people. so last time we tend to change it every time. So it's I don't know, it's fun also for us. and also it depends on like the context or yeah, where we're doing the workshop, where the participants. Last time I was saying that I was it was my turn to read poetry to the vegetable crops. And so I would just go in the field and just read poetry and sing music to the crops so that they grow better. sometimes we do skateboarding with the birds. it could be I don't know, anything. But basically if we do something unexpected or like I don't know if dreamful is the but you know, something really out of the normal life that we have in two thousand twenty six. It kinda opened the door. my god, I can dream this much. And so we tried to open different doors. I remember the first workshop that I did, someone was saying that they were doing like techno music festival while removing cement in the streets. And so it was because of the The sound of the machines, it was like a whole concert. So yeah, we try to give some playful bits that are also kind of radical in some sense, and opening doors for people to imagine whatever they want. So that when you yeah arrive in the glorious two thousand thirty you can imagine anything.

00:25:35: Julian: Wonderful. Wonderful. I have two questions now. Number one is, how technically spoken, how do I answer those questions? that an individual kind of answering? Do I write it down? I think about my answer?

00:25:56: Eli: You d don't get a lot of time to to think about it. You get this card, we have a blue card, it will fit in your wallet and and it's really what what comes to your heart right now, you will write it down. And it's for you. We can organize if we have the time afterwards like a circle and you will share with the other ones. But you can keep it also private because sometimes you We write something, it's it's very intimate, or it's a big dream, or you're not used to share this type of things. And we want actually to to train that part. Like can I can I say actually that I'm dreaming to organize pyjama party by like at my place every week? Is it is it okay if I'm 30 to make that? And yeah. And we want to liberal to free the speech to to make people to feel free to say some stuff to share.

00:27:06: Julian: Yes. So I totally understand that that's the invitation. How and when and where do participants need support in that? Because it's so new and it might be so daring and courageous. And it's like, wow, I imagine now, you know, yesterday had a full working day and I was negotiating with my client and today I'm like asked to think big and you know, envision myself in 15 years and then, know, so how I think what I really want to ask is, how do you sense that? Because that's for me, like sometimes the trickiest part, right? We give an activity and then we just hope that people get it. Yes, it's like, yeah, everyone is there and then everyone is silently writing or thinking or nodding. But how do you sense that and what type of support do you sometimes have to give or what should... Also our listeners that are thinking of, I also sometimes have big invitations from my participants. What and how do you do it?

00:28:16: Gaëlle: I think if it's fine Eddie that I jump in. so one is during the meditation you really focus on the body experience. So your mind isn't racing yet, isn't asking itself, is that right if I or it's just like what do you smell? What do you see? Do you hear the birds? What do you hear? And I th I feel like starting from a point of the body knows makes makes already like a a little door, a little step into this utopia world and then maybe the brain will analyze like, okay, I hear the birds, it probably means that I'm not in in t inside a big city. Or if I I don't know, I'm cooking with my mom, then it means that we live in the same place. Where or like that we live nearby, where could that be? So trying to already have some so some stones so that the brain can build on top of that. I think that's one thing. Other Another thing that we do is that we tell them that like there is no wrong utopia and also this doesn't have to be the only future plan they have. They can dream something today and tomorrow be like I dream about something else. It's it's a playful game. We really I think we yeah, just make sure that this is seen as a playful game and not something that has deep consequences.

00:29:44: Eli: huh.

00:29:45: Gaëlle: But I have to say and Eli, maybe you have I mean may yeah, maybe you can share also what's your experience. I rarely had people struggling with those questions. Usually they kinda know. Or like they have an idea. I think the only struggle that I had at the very beginning when I was facilitating is that people were really close to it's in five years and so it means that well I hope that like I don't know, whatever I was doing is growing and something very in in line with what's happening right now. And this is kinda what what we don't want 'cause that's not what's the point of this.

00:30:25: Julian: Okay.

00:30:26: Eli: And I would my I I I thought also sometimes it's not what the people wish. It's not big revolution, it's just like little steps. So if you had a very big day of work, let's stay on this instance example, then they will wish like more time. I I I want I just want more time, so it's not far hours week it will be like a 20 hours week. And then I want to share time with my daughter. So yeah, it's okay. And it's already something, it's already a vision because it's not happening that often right now. So sometimes we have like very simple dreams who are exactly like so totally legitimate. And it's already a dream. And I have another

00:31:16: Julian: Yes.

00:31:21: Eli: thought about one workshop I did, I think it was the most impressive I had since the beginning. It was with teenies who were actually not at school anymore and who had like actually big trouble to think about future in a positive way. And they

00:31:45: Julian: you

00:31:48: Eli: I had these several cases where I was the only one motivated then. And I found it actually very okay that they cannot express themselves about about future in a positive way, but just that in their position they don't they don't have the take every time like

00:31:57: Julian: you

00:32:18: Eli: just to express themselves. And it was more a space to express themselves about future than a space to express themselves positive about the future. But it was already extreme and it was already a chance. So it was already good. And

00:32:40: Julian: So I hear you saying, like in my words, it's like a well calibrated Think Big, right? depending really on. circumstances, context, participants, you know, their real day to day and then their envision day to day. And big, yeah, as you mentioned, right, can can mean so many different things for different people, right? It's not that way everyone wants to fly around and teleport themselves and other continents constantly. But sometimes it's really, yeah, spending that moment more or having that opportunity to cook with someone that you love. Wonderful. What's next?

00:33:28: Gaëlle: Yes, this is kind of like the the appetizer. Next, we ask the people within their table to share what they wrote, what feels relevant, whatever they want. And we try to already instore kind of a banter. so we will go around and maybe if someone is saying like, Yeah, I have this big I don't know

00:33:31: Julian: huh.

00:33:51: Gaëlle: restaurant from product from my garden and then someone say, Yeah, I have a garden. I'm like, yeah, you're actually also going there on Mondays to help out with this garden. So we try to already like make connections between individual people's life. so that they already kind of see yeah how their life could intertwin. And then we have debate questions which is more Taking this utopia that is very self-centered to the scale of what does that mean for a society? if my week is only tw my work week is only twenty hours and I get to swim in the river every morning, what does that mean as a society? And you get to do whatever you shared. And so then yeah, we have four questions to lead them around this playful exercise of imagining how society is. And the first one is what does a truly sustainable and caring society look like. And this can be sort anything. really it also really depends on the who are the people and what matter to them. Yeah.

00:35:07: Julian: Yes, of course. But I understand this is like an in-table discussion now or connecting and building upon each other's visions. okay. And for how long do you keep this running? I mean, the whole opening and the meditation and then the card. And now this new phase of the table group interacting with each other. Where are we on a timeline? Actually, did I ever ask how long do the workshop normally last?

00:35:45: Eli: It's very flexible. Like the shorter you can get, it's two hours.

00:35:50: Julian: Okay, yeah.

00:35:53: Eli: And we can extend till four-five hours.

00:35:58: Julian: Okay, got you. And this opening sequence, is that like a half an hour?

00:36:04: Gaëlle: Yeah for something like that. I think they start sharing about the YouTube yeah after maybe forty minutes. Yeah. Half an hour, forty minutes.

00:36:13: Julian: And for how long do they get to share?

00:36:17: Gaëlle: So those four questions we do between seven and ten minutes.

00:36:23: Julian: Okay, so it's really like this drum beating of the four questions and then you build you build and Okay, got you a seven. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that that is yeah. Yeah now I hear you I mean that that is not a lot of time, right? I mean if I have six colleagues sitting with me at the table and then their new Questions coming every every seven eight nine minutes. Yeah. Yeah, that's okay. Got you So we really need to speed up right and make sure that everyone can participate and describe you mentioned the role is described already active in those first table discussions.

00:37:05: Eli: Yeah, actually it's active since the sharing of the everyday like the first question. If we have some we name them pipit in French, it's like our highlights. Not everything, because we need the script to to be in the experience as well. But yeah, the best ideas.

00:37:19: Julian: Okay, yeah. Got you, That's creative. And just a technical thing. This jam recording, is that a specific phase or do you nominate or ask someone to do this while they're simultaneously listening? Yeah. And then of course, maybe they want to take turns also in inscribing, right? Because it takes a little bit of your attention, obviously, right?

00:38:03: Gaëlle: Yes. We had one group that was like, Okay, let's just switch every question. I found it so sweet. It was the first time that I've seen that. and sometimes it's just people like, Okay, I'm fine doing it. And I guess it depends like how much you want to take notes. Some people are really prophylic, some others are like more bullet point.

00:38:24: Julian: Yes, got you. Okay, so notes are being taken, the four rounds are, you know, it's emerging. Is there sometimes also, or do you observe more invite your participants to also draw something or because you mentioned the paper and is there some other way of expressing the connection or what it means for society, the scale up question, so to speak? What else is happening?

00:38:56: Gaëlle: so we usually the workshop doesn't do such an invite, but we as I mentioned the workshop is very flexible. So sometimes we had people creating little scenes like theater to show the other table what their utopia is like. That was very fun. Some group were really into it and and made like I don't know, yeah, real, real shows. Other times we had people, yeah, kinda the same invitation but more freeform. And a group did art installation of like we were outside and so they gathered some pieces of whatever they could find and then created like a whole structure that they presented. Another group did kind of like a little dance choreography. I don't know if I can really say that, but something with the body. And another one made more of a explaining talk kind of

00:39:50: Julian: Yeah.

00:39:51: Gaëlle: Kind of podcast way where they would ask each other question. So yeah, we if we have enough time, we enjoy having these creative bits. also especially if we are outside if yeah, if we have time, we are outside in nature or sitting in a in a park or something, that could be a very interesting invitation and also creative one.

00:40:14: Julian: Katja. So the table utopia and you mentioned they will then share their installation, their dance, their explanation, their findings with the others. What happens then? So yeah, what's next?

00:40:34: Eli: So when they shared, we coming back because we were still in the 2030s, and now it's like the hard time to come back to 2026. But we don't want to lose like the the good energy and the vibe, so we distribute the oracles oracles cards we have, and it's like the rate it's every card has a topic, for instance agriculture or alimentation or I don't know, arts culture. And they are very beautiful. They are very well designed. And on this card you will find some ten ten and and fifteen different initiatives who already exist in this world. to to realise that a lot of things already exist, a lot of projects already exist, just we don't hear a lot about them. Yeah. And every like which player gets one card, choose also one initiative who will who could contribute to the consolidation of the the utopia they created.

00:41:43: Julian: Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:01: Eli: And there is a kind of vote between the players what are the three new project initiatives they want to adopt to like to be the fundaments of their utopia. So kind of new discussion is open.

00:42:21: Julian: Okay. And can you make an example? what such a project and initiative is? I was already thinking how you maybe even tailor that then to a specific group or sector or, know.

00:42:41: Gaëlle: For example, there's a a card about na biodiversity and nature restoration and one of the initiatives, I can't remember from which country, is to give nature a legal entity. And maybe there's another option that is I don't know, every school kid gets to plant a tree. I don't know. But some real initiatives on the topic. And then if I get that card, I think there are like 10 cards. Yeah. They are so pretty. We'll put a picture for the people when we do that. Yes. And so I get that card. I think that the one the like the most impactful and the one maybe the most in line with our utopia is the legal entity, and then we will all share our best find card.

00:43:13: Julian: lovely We can do that, we can do that, yes.

00:43:33: Gaëlle: And then we will decide, okay, what is necessary for it's kinda like the vision is that the initiatives most of the time is very local. And the question is if we take this local initiative and put it at scale, so either in the country or in Europe, in the world, wherever we are, this will for sure contribute to make the utopia happen, the closed two thousand thirties happen. And then we get people to do like a top three. And usually they kind of do boxes of we take this one because when this one can reinforce this one and this one and this one. And I'm like, you're smart. This is how we do it. and yeah, and the idea is really that they realize that the Glorious 2030 is already on the way. That we need to reinvent everything, that we don't have to start from scratch because so many people are already working to make things different.

00:44:31: Julian: Yes, Okay. Now, is it another sharing then of their top three? Okay. And then what happens then? I can imagine now we're even full of great projects that we didn't know before or maybe someone do I can imagine myself and I think oh great I need to look this up I need to figure out what's happening in you know in my area around this topic and then okay so we voted for that we shared it what's what's happening next and that's still kind of utopian but then the signals are already here and heard today right

00:45:12: Eli: Yeah, yeah, we're we're coming to the end of the workshop. That's what I what it means. So we will come again in this big circle, all everybody everyone together, and depending on the time we still have, we will ask them also like to share as a group also what they choose.

00:45:38: Julian: Mmm.

00:45:38: Eli: For an initiative so that they can everybody can hear, okay, it it looks like that, they're utopia. I like it. I I I want to join. And then in a second round, the what we what we call the popcorn highlights is like everybody can tell what they liked. for instance, it was it's a relief for me, it's very satisfying to know. Everybody at my table had this also this idea or also this hope and I feel connected and it's like the moment where we are open the floor for for feedbacks.

00:46:24: Julian: Yes

00:46:25: Eli: Positive feedback. Yeah. That's that's important. And then when the these two rounds happened, we take we take on the floor and yeah say thank you. It was wonderful. we give recommendation about books, about podcasts, and We yeah, we s think we we say thank you.

00:47:00: Gaëlle: Yeah.

00:47:02: Julian: But in that closing, I have a lot of question about that very moment of reflecting upon the experience and the connections made, the ideas that emerged, maybe also the feelings that I had during. And then going back to my day to day. Yeah. mean, how do you support, invite, encourage participants now to follow up to do something with

00:47:36: Eli: I forgot something. I forgot now that you're asking, I forgot something. We have remember we gave them small cards with the three questions at the beginning. Yes, yes. Like how how does your everyday life look and everything? And on the back of this small blue card, we have two questions for the near future.

00:48:05: Julian: Got you.

00:48:06: Eli: And there are like what is your n next step to your utopia? And what is your what is your

00:48:14: Gaëlle: What do you wish for yourself in the glorious two thousand thirty?

00:48:17: Julian: Okay, anyway, okay

00:48:20: Gaëlle: And the idea also, depending on the group we have, but something we did already a couple of time, is that we invite people to share, like to find another person who shares those two things and maybe install kind of a accountability body system. Yes. It's like, okay, my next step is to read on this topic and maybe contact this person about how they live in this city. Yes. And your is to

00:48:36: Julian: Yes.

00:48:47: Gaëlle: go swimming with your grandpa in the next month. And so we can maybe if we are already friends then we can just hold each other accountability or if we're not then maybe we exchange contacts so that we can talk about it again. Yes. It's also yeah, always this I said out loud what I wanna do so it exists more and I feel more yeah accountable to do it.

00:49:11: Julian: Gotcha, gotcha. So, and here's another question. Thinking of this game as a platform, have you run or are there examples where this game has been run, let's say, within a community or within an organization, within a team or association, where you, I mean, like almost completely tailor it to their existing initiatives to what they're already doing, right? So that now that the system is even supporting me in terms of, now I don't have to find this, know, Beehive association in Berlin, but now I literally just have to pick up the phone or write someone on Teams because I know we are doing something with XYZ in either my region or in a country that we're also active. So I was wondering, you know, How much, I think the better question is probably how much creative, unrelated initiatives, impulse must be there or how little can be there so that it works. That I find something that I would more likely or that increases the likelihood that I follow through. It's very complicated.

00:50:38: Gaëlle: Interesting question. so there is they worked like the NGO worked on a new set of cards for companies. So I can imagine that maybe then because it's like work specific initiatives, it's there's maybe something easier to implement and to follow through if you play then in a in like work context and then people have like concrete ideas. other than that, well kind of I I don't know if this is really related, you tell me. and Eli, feel free to jump in. When we translated the cards from the French game, we often have this problem of it's mostly French initiatives. And so we have to look for international initiatives or initiatives in the region where we're translating the game to. And so this sometimes creates then a bit of a bigger gap because if you only have French example, it's kinda like, yeah, cool for France, but I don't relate as much. And so there is this this work of yeah, trying to find specific initiatives in that one region. And it's I think it also goes in the direction of if if I know that there is that one NGO in Berlin, then I'm much more eager, maybe, to join, to call or to yeah follow through as you said. So I think there is like a cultural part that's important there and that we still mm are working on how to tackle, let's say.

00:52:14: Julian: Got you, got you. But then, you know, this is an essential part, I understand now, of the game or of that prompt or those initiative cards that this is a clear signal that is, you know, reachable, connectable to what I envisioned, right? And it's like, wow, great, this is already there or something similar is there or, let me find out how close it is, right? And then be inspired by that. I mean, it's not that I thought. whole association through in 20 minutes. It's more like, that would have been an interesting flavor or part or component of my utopian.

00:52:57: Gaëlle: Yeah, we always also try to make room for if you know initiatives that should be on that card, let us know. It's also written on every card, like if you're free to just add initiatives. Yeah.

00:53:10: Julian: Wow. And what is your most memorable moment? mean, is there any unique experience you had with this flow, with the way participants reacted? What they found.

00:53:34: Gaëlle: I have one in mind, or do you want to start with it?

00:53:38: Eli: I I thought about Berlin-based workshops since we're in Berlin and this we were in the in one bar, Kalash. very very good atmosphere and there were music. And I came to this table and they were trying the participant like to redesign Berlin into an agri agricultural landscape but in the two thousand thirties Berlin will produce only catofilm those we are very local based in our production so every s Berliner street will cultivate different kinds of potatoes. That was my very Berlin German

00:54:28: Julian: Okay, wow.

00:54:36: Eli: Based on a workshop.

00:54:39: Gaëlle: also a burden workshop that I have in mind. We did it with an ecofeminist NGO.

00:54:46: Julian: Yes, I think we lost Gaëlle there. while we are reconnecting with Gaëlle. There's also one question slowly looking also at our time in this podcast is you mentioned that you facilitate these workshops. together, especially with larger viewers, right? And I was wondering if you too, if you have an ultimate co-facilitation tip for our listeners, right? So something that you should look out for, watch out for, prepare the best case or worst case scenarios, right, when you are facilitating with a fellow colleague.

00:55:35: Eli: I think it's just we are very we spend a few hours before the workshop just to prepare to be like, okay, everyone has the who has the material, who get that. It's very we have like a lot of Google Drive, Google Docs. And everything is written down. What we need, what we want, what we expect. Everything is

00:55:54: Julian: Mm-hmm.

00:56:04: Eli: Somewhere in the cloud and I think the best and the most important part for a co-facilitation is actually the debriefing afterwards. We always take like one two hours together, not directly after the workshop, but in the week after, where we will speak about our feelings, our impressions, and it's always Like it goes in the same direction, but we have different like w we are different, so we live experience a different in a different way. And that's the most most important thing to do because afterwards after this debriefing we always have new things to work on. So it's it's yeah actually.

00:56:40: Julian: Mmm.

00:57:05: Eli: Already preparation for the next one. Okay.

00:57:09: Julian: you Gaëlle, welcome back to the podcast. I have no idea if it's possible to cut this podcast in such a smart way that we will not realize that you dropped out this call, but if not, we'll just leave it in as it is. It's life. Maybe part inspiration for some utopian ideas for Berlin. We moved on. Okay, so there's like two to three looming questions right now. Okay, so number one is I asked Elie, what is a co-facilitation tip that you want to give to our listeners? when, you know, facilitating with a dear colleague. Now Elie mentioned, you know, preparing well in advance and having a lot of things written down, just checklists and more documents, just to make sure that, you know, the ramping up is happening in a structured and... clean way, whatever that means. And then also the debriefing a couple of days, week after to also, let's say, debrief, decompress, reflect and have that then that including this embodied state of mind. Yeah, afterwards to then also figure out not only how to improve, but also just to share. What is your co-facilitation tip, your ultimate co-facilitation tip for our listeners?

00:58:35: Gaëlle: Yes. I will say yes and basically yes and your co-facilitator. Yeah. you have an idea yes and and you say something and even if not even if my sentence is unrelated, but I will yes and whatever you say. to the participants but also between us. If you have the feeling that they didn't spend enough time in Utopia, then yes and we make this one this question longer and we make this one shorter and maybe we switch this way. and trust each other really. I think this also comes with experience and with time. And with Eli we've been facilitating quite a lot together by now. And we also work together every week. we spend quite a lot of time together and we we like each other. So of course it's easier. but I fully trust Eli and her intuition also. So I will yeah we're on the same side. Basically it's like you're on the same side and you're also on the same time as participants. There is no like

00:59:27: Eli: Yeah.

00:59:32: Gaëlle: You against me or us against them. It's really we are all in the same team. And this, yeah, for me I think is is kind of

00:59:40: Julian: Wonderful. Thanks, thanks Carol. And we lost you with the Kartoffeln, with the potatoes in Berlin. So what is your most memorable? I want to get that too. What's your most memorable?

00:59:53: Gaëlle: yes. So I did one workshop with the eco-feminist NGO and it was amazing. I was so amazed by the ideas. One where and it's actually it happened a couple of times that there is a rocket with some powerful

01:00:13: Eli: We don't tell the name.

01:00:14: Gaëlle: Inside, I don't know if I can say names, but some of them, you know, and the rocket just go to Mars and sometimes the rocket explodes, sometimes not. We don't care. But basically they're not on in Earth on Earth and this is the jo enjoyable part. And another yeah, and they they did like a little show of it. It was so fun. I I had a yeah, a great time. And another one also had an idea that I found very powerful. It was a collective grieving day for maybe the whole planet, I don't know, about masculinity and what it means. Because then we kind of like move out of this very binary world that oppose things so strongly. and I really enjoy the idea of collective grief. Because like I think we we will have to grieve a lot of things in the next years to come and to make it like a realization that this is collectively affecting us and that even if it's hopefully for the best, it's still hard to lose something. And if if even if it was something that wasn't really good, it's still hard because it used to be there and maybe I used to also see myself through that in a way or in another. And I was like, yeah, this is brilliant. I really enjoyed it.

01:01:37: Julian: that. So I like, wow. So I here I sense a envision, you know, just lots, lots, lots of things going on, not just the ideas and the emotions, but also how it all connects and is rerouted maybe to today. Is there also like a, and when you you shared, yes, the, you know, next step in the wish and the accountability buddy, but is there also a moment of debriefing or decompressing of de-rolling for the participants? what reactions do you see or what conversations do you have afterwards? Besides, again, maybe inspiration, being overwhelmed. being inspired, is there also a moment where you say, we always need to maybe also watch out here and there when we are working in very creative scenarios, how it affects our participants? What is your experience or thoughts on that?

01:02:55: Eli: we we basically never close the door after this big circle. So we stay almost like 30 minutes, one hour after Watts because there is still a lot of excitement in the room. And people are are still connecting. So we had also once like a table. Who re like they s sat again. Like a group sat again to keep on imaginating. Yes, yes. And and then we were very open for feedbacks. We also have also paper where people can write on if they want like to give us some tips. For instance, we had

01:03:27: Julian: Hmm. you.

01:03:52: Eli: last time or two times actually the feedback that we like the workshop is maybe missing the aspect of artificial intelligence. Like ha and we were working the lat last week. how can we involve this aspect? So we still have this discussion afterwards but yeah that

01:04:07: Julian: Hmm.

01:04:22: Eli: That's the thing that we still also feel the excitement of the workshop. So it's still there. Yes. And that's actually a great question, Gaëlle. Do we do do you have an idea how we manage to count down afterwards?

01:04:44: Gaëlle: I don't know if this is really calming anyone down. But we do the ecological firework.

01:04:49: Eli: Doesn't come down.

01:04:54: Julian: What is it though?

01:04:52: Gaëlle: Doesn't count down, okay. But it Okay. It's it's a very nice way to celebrate and kinda do the closing. it's three steps, very easy. People are standing and then they put their hands on the ground and you basically do until you reach up on top of your head, you clap.

01:05:15: Julian: Shoooo

01:05:21: Gaëlle: E so everybody does that at the same time. And then you just clap everywhere on your body and it really does that firework, sounds and energy. Okay, it doesn't really count people down. I get what you mean. More energy. I don't think that we make I don't think that we make them count.

01:05:36: Eli: I think it the the word celebration also you say, like we celebrate, I think it the people stay in the mood also of the party. Like we spoke during three hours of about dreaming. It's still you're still conditioning to for the next hour to I don't know, to dance, to party, to stay there, to stay in the in the mood. I'm not sure we want the people to leave our workshop.

01:06:03: Julian: Got you. Got you. And then even days after the workshop, you're allowed to dance and be in the mood and make fun and to dream. Wonderful. Wonderful. Wow. I was wondering, there is... Do you do this online? Yeah. I can imagine it's very different, right, to what you shared now. I just because of the energy in the room, the table grooves, hearing them mumbling and laughing and creating their installation and dance and describing the walking and the outside and the inside. mean, it's a different flow, right? Yes.

01:06:49: Gaëlle: Different for sure. It can work. Like I yeah.

01:06:49: Eli: Mm-hmm.

01:06:54: Julian: What it was... I guess our listeners and I can say it works because you make it work. what is the main difference? What would you say to someone who has a great on-site concept, game? and now is facilitating this online. mean, what is for you the biggest difference and how do you deal with it? I mean, also personally, I mean, because obviously sitting in front of the screen is different than standing in front of those 20 people.

01:07:30: Eli: Yeah. I I mean for us like our workshop is based on a discussion. So the biggest challenge will to to have less to have them discuss without us to say like yes Caroline, you aren't, you can speak with us. So maybe two things. The first thing is to create this relationship this relation between the players. Gaëlle spoke about it. So yeah you have this garden then you can cultivate the vegetables for this research and so that the people feel related with each other and feel more free to s to s to speak out when they want to answer each other. And the second tips is like to be v very, very expressive on your camera, to be joking, you are really embodying the joy, the energy. You you're basically we're too much. But if we're too much, people can be like then much. So yeah, we are very Playing theater, I think, online. Yeah.

01:08:59: Gaëlle: Yeah. Yeah. I think exactly what you said, like really doing too much and creating connection between them. And it's kinda like finding how to retreat digitally, even though you're still in the same space, because it could like in real life you could just walk away from the table to leave them some space. And digitally you can remove your camera, but that's kinda everything. Or maybe you could actually leave the camera and leave. I don't know if that would help. but yeah, so there is something about like finding your place and that people aren't waiting for you or expecting you to step up or to Yeah. So that's I think it's it's it might be a bit tricky to find this sweet spot. Also what what helps is that we do much smaller groups. So maybe max to five people. and so it's also kinda easier because like you cannot really banter as much as you do in person because you have like to talk kind of

01:10:02: Julian: One. Yeah, yeah, two, two. Yeah.

01:10:05: Gaëlle: Yeah. But honestly the experience is still very fun and people loved it.

01:10:09: Julian: Again, it's just a different experience, right? For me, it's yeah, of course, this fluidity of the discussion. And I would also say this embodied moment is sometimes forgotten. then yes, we can maybe even take our phones or iPads or tablets, whatever, and then move, you know, the space. then, yeah, that's something we just need to anticipate. And then yeah, it will work. I'm sure. and still we need to be prepared. Not for the worst case, but also for the good case and the best case out there. Wow, wow, wow. I mean, I'm looking at our time. It feels like we could talk more and that you have so many more ideas and tips for our listeners. But I think it feels good. close, to finally close. Maybe one last question. Is there anything we didn't talk about that we should have mentioned or let our listeners know?

01:11:09: Gaëlle: yeah, maybe I have an idea. Is that at least in France there are a lot of workshops that are all the fresco workshops that are helping people to draw connections and understand better the state of any topic. Let's say you have like diversity fresco, the climate fresco, you have the sexism fresco, biodiversity, ocean and so on. And most of the workshop those workshops they are very informative, very well drawn, and it's great to understand. But sometimes it's very depressing. And kinda lacking this, okay, what do we do now? and I feel like this workshop is a great kind of like follow up to those kind of workshops. Now that you know all of that, how can you imagine something better? and so it kinda like counterbalanced there is maybe a lot of content, numbers and So scientific facts let's say in the first one and in ours it's more playful, dreaming, imagining and then embodying agency. And it's a good combo, to have kinda like both going together.

01:12:21: Eli: Well maybe like related to co-facilitation. So it's a real relief to trust the co-facilitator, but I will also consider and recommend to co-facilitate co-facilitate with new people. Because you learn so much about new methods and also Only one time, but just try to try new methods and try with other workshop facilitators. Because it's always you will always get tips and new things you want to to make and to implement. It's very rich for new ideas.

01:13:11: Julian: Thank you too. felt like sitting on your shoulder while you were walking us through the workshop and what I specifically like. I am also a big fan of low tech and minimalistic, let's say approaches because it leaves more space for the participants. But then it's so wonderful to see how a conversational game can invite the participants and lead them to You know, strong emotions, deep conversations, wishes and dreams and reconnecting with family and loved ones and doing other things. And that's always great to see and even more great to be part of as participant or a facilitator. Wow. Thank you too.

01:13:48: Eli: Sha Thank you.

01:14:09: Julian: And I know you two will be at the series Games for Series Change meetup shortly. I'll link that most likely when you listen to this episode. meetup has already happened. But in the show notes, you will find all the links and things that we mentioned. And of course, the contact details of Eli and Gaëlle so you can reach out to them. And also to me, if there's anything you want to know or games that you want to present or that you want to see being covered on the podcast. Until then, enjoy. Bye-bye.