00:00:02: Hello and welcome to the series games podcast all about playful methods for interactive trainings and facilitation.

00:00:10: Let's get started.

00:00:11: Welcome back to the serious Games Podcast.

00:00:13: Well today I'm connected to Geneva with Daniel LaRose And Daniel is the founder of The Game Studio actually his own game studio called LaRos de Gio, and I think on this website he says you're bringing the impossible ideas to life through play.

00:00:32: That sounds interesting and even more interesting now we have to go back to, in nineteen sixty one when a very famous scientist came up with an equation um...and you created game around complex science finding the universe and adventure and dice.

00:00:55: And I really want to learn more.

00:00:58: It's going be very interesting because, yeah it fits in a bigger picture and we will get into that.

00:01:04: but first of all welcome to the podcast Daniel!

00:01:08: Thank you Julian.

00:01:10: uh i'm really happy to be with you and yep always the funny part about this kind of story is as usual started with a joke

00:01:19: like all the

00:01:20: a little bit complicated stuff, you already introduced the Drake equation and basically we went with some friends.

00:01:29: And one of them said yeah I really want to do something special for the science fair of year twenty five.

00:01:37: so we need to create something really attractive really nice really new To make people get in astronomy astrobiology make them look up, basically.

00:01:53: And so we just say to a game with dice is like okay why?

00:01:58: Why dice?

00:02:00: Just because it's totally random.

00:02:02: and that part of the joke when you set an equation people are afraid they'll want to run away like ok this math maths is

00:02:11: scary!

00:02:13: In fact if you throw at ice its not math.

00:02:17: Yeah, obviously it's math because there are statistics.

00:02:19: But you don't feel like math is just throwing dice and betting and bluffing or whatever.

00:02:26: So we try to find the best way to make this concept of math which is really scary being totally normal and accessible.

00:02:37: And dice was a most common and basic object We think about.

00:02:43: Okay That that's one.

00:02:45: well, I have to say and if we have some time too hot pack everything.

00:02:50: That's one part And the other part is then extraterrestrial civilizations.

00:02:56: Okay so let me start with them and we got half of the story already.

00:03:02: So let me started with One traditional question and in the second part of Making math accessible and then The game and how it unfolded.

00:03:13: So, what should our listeners know about you?

00:03:21: and how do you pitch Drake's dice to someone who is afraid of math?

00:03:37: A lot of people say yes, some say no.

00:03:41: If they're saying no I'd probably just because you didn't find the game would fit here.

00:03:46: Because when we speak about games there's so many different type of games.

00:03:51: like if you liked chess and somebody don't like chess but other people can like... I don't know, pirate dice or like Spice Word?

00:04:05: I'm not sure it's a good name in English play with words or a mystery, Dixit whatever and all.

00:04:12: that's our games but they're touch different audiences.

00:04:16: And so when people say I don't like game okay probably you can.

00:04:20: just what did you like?

00:04:21: When do you like hobbies?

00:04:23: And if it was like I liked creating is OK!

00:04:26: So we can go on Games.

00:04:27: when you have to build stuff...I like competition..so ok You can go tactical games.

00:04:33: The first thing is aiming the game you like.

00:04:37: And second, when people say it's really scary... You find that it's scary to throw dice?

00:04:44: Obviously not!

00:04:45: So we can play a game and I try to make a comparison with games that people know.

00:04:51: so for the previous game i spoke about chess which was a little bit scary but less than speaking about quantum physics throwing dice.

00:05:02: so it's not scary.

00:05:03: and if people are really, really afraid to say when we've done the playtest.

00:05:07: our younger player was four-and-a-half years old.

00:05:11: So If he was able to get The basic concept I'm pretty sure that everybody can reach it When you're older than four-an-a half years old.

00:05:25: Wonderful, wonderful.

00:05:26: And lots of mentions that you made.

00:05:29: I will link all the games in the show notes right?

00:05:33: We can also look at your quantum physics game and then also Dixit and other things mentioned.

00:05:39: Wonderful!

00:05:40: So

00:05:42: what else?

00:05:44: I always try to skip a question about myself because it's most interesting part but quickly wrap up.

00:05:52: So when I have to introduce myself, I said that first thing.

00:05:56: I'm owned by four cats and I pretty fond of them And it looked like they found me.

00:06:02: so okay?

00:06:04: and uh...I Studied physics long time ago.

00:06:09: one the first things i realized is physicists.

00:06:13: At some point scientists are not really good at speaking and sharing.

00:06:19: And there's this part of science that people don't know really well which is outreach.

00:06:24: The main problem with outreach, it doesn't reach out to the science-attracted people.

00:06:31: so its like going in a circle and I try find different ways to make science accessible for those who are afraid.

00:06:42: So basically what you can What's maybe interesting about me is I started to explain stuff, it may be science but also history language whatever.

00:06:55: Two people when i was twelve years old not because i was smarter or what ever It just because...I like play game and create games with friends and stuff And When I saw a concept that didn't get I tried to create the game and it worked well in my friend.

00:07:16: When I was at school, I was the one creating game about math or whatever.

00:07:21: And people in my classroom were like hey we can play together and they get it!

00:07:26: The teacher would be really happy.

00:07:28: Got you got here?

00:07:29: yes!

00:07:30: It's a wonderful way to... This is the series games podcast right?

00:07:36: Not only use the game mechanics but also have learning mechanics in there, right?

00:07:45: So that you do get into contact every now and then with a new concept.

00:07:51: With maybe scary complex... complicated topic And make it accessible.

00:07:58: Wonderful!

00:08:00: When did the extraterrestrial idea come in here?

00:08:05: It was bad joke in this space.

00:08:10: So since a long time, but the thing is really that the promise I'm working on like ten different games and at some point have to make choice And this friend coming to us now.

00:08:25: okay we need A game about astronomy for September twenty five.

00:08:30: We say ok just let's start it because i am working with Alisa Pot which Planetology student and she's not just a student, She is also a magician.

00:08:41: So her background is quite impressive but I suggest to invite her another time.

00:08:48: Yes!

00:08:51: As a young student...she really for me somebody which inspire me..She won like less than one month ago the FameLab Switzerland first step concept.

00:09:04: basically FameLab.

00:09:05: Yeah, championship.

00:09:06: Context?

00:09:08: Context!

00:09:08: Sorry... Wow it was complicated!

00:09:11: Contest!

00:09:12: Wow not context but contest about speaking of science.

00:09:18: and she basically pitched the Drake Dice equation and so on But not just through a game Through A Magic Show.

00:09:26: So She creates real world And you dive in a world being tracked by magic.

00:09:34: The magic explain the universe of science, which is forming one of the oldest and best connections existing in the world because a lot of magicians were scientists basically.

00:09:45: But so Alisa come to me.

00:09:48: we are speaking about games And when the other friend comes say okay We need something!

00:09:54: So now let's go on the Drake equation Because he speaks about life.

00:09:59: There're more people.

00:10:03: Everybody saw some days, some alien movie when the aliens come and want you to kill humanity.

00:10:11: But one thing is that if we are an Alien and the first thing they get from humankind... ...is hey!

00:10:20: They will just fight us even if he comes in peace.

00:10:25: you don't really want to get involved.

00:10:28: And all those things are end for to real science question, one of the oldest is the Fermi paradox which says if there's life in space why we alone?

00:10:42: Some of these questions are into the Drake equation.

00:10:49: basically the Drake equations said what do need to get in touch with some extraterrestrial intelligence.

00:10:59: First things, okay you will become a real hardcore astrophysicist for two seconds.

00:11:04: so I'm pretty sure that you're ready for this Julian!

00:11:10: What is

00:11:12: the first thing you need?

00:11:13: To get life in universe it's really under your nose and think as easy as possible.

00:11:24: easier

00:11:24: than that?

00:11:27: An organism

00:11:28: matters.

00:11:30: There you go, basically

00:11:32: what we know just actually is if there's no matters in your life.

00:11:36: so Basically You need a certain amount of matters because it may be possible to imagine organism living in space with not a lot of connection between atoms, but for what we know having atoms really connected together to create something living it's not so crazy.

00:11:57: So when you have the fair amount of matter is a planet!

00:12:03: That why I say it's like under your nose literally because you need planets.

00:12:09: and so congrats parameter of the Drake equation, so you're a great physicist.

00:12:17: Wonderful!

00:12:18: And

00:12:19: first things are planets orbiting in space around

00:12:26: stars?

00:12:27: Stars

00:12:27: perfect!!

00:12:28: So you have this second parameter... You've already debunked one third of the equations.

00:12:35: as we see it's really complicated and there is at least five other parameters.

00:12:41: One, we didn't take in the game because it's a stable parameter.

00:12:47: It is new star born each year and as the other parameter those... So two parameters that speak about this I will not say easy but you can have insights with math physics our old telescopes or technology.

00:13:07: We're gonna have insight.

00:13:10: there's the four other parameters are totally unsure.

00:13:14: The other parameter is the priority for a planet to develop life, we don't know... To develop intelligent life?

00:13:23: We still do not know!

00:13:24: To develop an intelligent life who can communicate through space because you have to see and reach out obviously.

00:13:35: And the length of life of the civilization or this extraterrestrial life.

00:13:41: Because if that happens during, I don't know like one hundred years depending on time to travel... The signal traveled between would not be enough.

00:13:52: when we'll have the signal back there will already dead.

00:13:59: and it's just logic is not hardcore science.

00:14:05: And that's one thing we're really proud of is because when you explain it to kids as I say, yeah.

00:14:11: That just logical and often adults are really more afraid than kids Because they'll be like Yeah!

00:14:18: Just... To find life You need LIFE!

00:14:21: Yay!

00:14:25: So explaining THAT in a couple minutes Is one thing.

00:14:29: but then Gave me flying it or, you know making a game with this content.

00:14:38: How did that work?

00:14:39: Or could even walk us through the gameplay and then we learn together With You as he explained It what happens And how players are invited to the flow and What they memorize and experience

00:14:57: And with pleasure.

00:14:58: So you have to know that I cheat a little bit with the serious game design traditional tactics, uh i've met A lot of service.

00:15:07: game designer was like The fun is not the most important part To be honest?

00:15:13: I think That's a little Bit sad but I understand where it come from and so on then so It's we can argue about it.

00:15:21: But some other point.

00:15:23: so for me which is important, if people don't enjoy the game they will not get involved and obviously won't remember.

00:15:33: So because those games are not games we'll do some animation around.

00:15:41: but another thing you have to know is that these games are boardgames.

00:15:45: We sell them through the science place like CERN university whatever.

00:15:54: One of the things is to get money for science.

00:15:57: But people can buy a game and have to play by themselves, so if the game mechanics are not good enough they will play once twice And after forget the game on the shelter.

00:16:12: it'll be total failure.

00:16:13: So each game I'm creating has three levels.

00:16:17: The first level is quite easy because i want them to have an easy onboarding and say, okay I understand the game mechanics.

00:16:25: Especially if they theme are scary because... If onboarding is hard it will just never get in.

00:16:34: So first things.

00:16:36: Second thing is that i wanted to have a long-length life.

00:16:40: I want people play it again And Again Not Because They're Interested About Astrobiology Quantum Physics Neuroscience Whatever But Because There Are Insted In The Game.

00:16:53: So that's super important to have a game which is really fun, enjoyable.

00:17:02: And as we spoke before there are different types of games.

00:17:06: so it's totally okay if you're not your type with the game but... That why its super-important for me to be clear this kind of game.

00:17:14: so Drake Dice Game about luck and statistics.

00:17:21: And we choose this mechanics because just taking the example of hop up is an abstract strategy game like chess.

00:17:31: When you say chess, people are afraid Because it's for smart people and We want to break that in fact.

00:17:39: So the choice of game mechanics are always science related.

00:17:57: With Drake Dice, we wanted to make people consider that it's not because an equation is officially math.

00:18:06: this is known sure and hard.

00:18:10: so playing with these equations which totally... We don't have any answer for some specialists will say For sure there's plenty life everywhere At this time of the universe and at reachable distance, which is a bet.

00:18:26: And somebody would tell you there's not because no life in Universe but just like other galaxy will never reach

00:18:34: them.

00:18:36: So they are bets!

00:18:38: Going to these dice trowing basics make that really appealing for normal people.

00:18:50: You also, you know just said something on the side.

00:18:54: but this enjoyment and fun right?

00:18:57: And should a game be fun now.

00:18:59: I guess we all agree that you could learn something even if it's not fun

00:19:04: totally.

00:19:04: But as you just explained You don't.

00:19:08: the game can be fun.

00:19:10: But even at tricky hard challenging

00:19:14: task

00:19:15: or game in that sense That you play for other reasons than fun, like finishing up or just getting through it.

00:19:27: Winning against the game maybe with some colleague-partner friend that can also be enjoyable even if you might not say afterwards That was a lot of fun right?

00:19:39: So no thin line.

00:19:42: but again enjoyment is more then fun and can be an important part, and you deliberately decided that.

00:19:49: Yes it must be especially when we onboard players right.

00:19:52: so they are not only on board but drawn into this idea of wow I could master it!

00:19:58: Right?

00:19:59: iIcan do it um...i can get somewhere.

00:20:01: uh yeah the main difference is um When you do a workshop in the Serious Game Context with um with facilitator agile games and one You Are In The Work space and you are drowned here by external force, which is You have to be there.

00:20:25: And I they're literally barely barely sorry choose To skip that part.

00:20:33: so I didn't ask the player Directly after make them come because this board game or accessible freely Really, not for free but like accessible in the shop or whatever.

00:20:47: So people have to onboard by themselves and that's where this mechanics of fun is really important because I also want those games to spread by themself.

00:21:02: And if you want... In the board game world If you want a game to spread it's Because we say to other player Hey!

00:21:11: i really liked the mechanics.

00:21:13: So theme is the first door like okay, there's.

00:21:17: I to be honest hop was First things reaching the physicist and people who have interest about quantum physics.

00:21:26: But after now it's getting further because people say.

00:21:29: I really liked mechanics And i want to play more with friends?

00:21:32: Absolutely, and I'll link that right.

00:21:34: It's a different game.

00:21:35: maybe we can do an episode on that too but um i will definitely make sure it's in the show notes so that our listeners can look at up right?

00:21:44: So again onboarding number one level-one easy onboarding.

00:21:48: you're gonna walk us through or you wouldn't want to introduce some materials.

00:21:53: just give a little bit of feeling what it's like to be onboarded to Drake's Dice.

00:21:59: Okay,

00:22:00: so basically when you open the box for Drake Dice first thing that you see is this board which holds inside and with these cubes.

00:22:14: Yes,

00:22:15: so you have

00:22:17: the camera.

00:22:18: And we'll put some pictures in the show notes too.

00:22:22: So you can choose that.

00:22:23: obviously this is just my prototype so it's not really because the final isn't printing now and In fact its that.

00:22:31: basically You've got a board which has six symbols parameter of the question we spoke before, stars planets and so on.

00:22:43: And The first level is really easy.

00:22:45: you have to upgrade your tools to detect those parameters.

00:22:50: So in terms of ups up term of them You're just moving here a cube Sorry like that?

00:22:56: Moving your cubes further because you become higher-level and at some point We will not just try to upgrade Your tools but you tried to detect life.

00:23:05: This is the first thing you see, so basically it's interesting because those cubes and holes make people want to play.

00:23:13: It may look silly but we saw that people like moving stuff!

00:23:18: The second things are the dice.

00:23:23: there're obviously eight dices with strange symbols, which are the parameters like a little halion heads to say that this intelligence life or stars whatever.

00:23:36: And basically each player take his board in front of him.

00:23:40: I have screened products.

00:23:41: so because we all impersonate really well-known and confident skills researcher about life from you to find the life and

00:23:54: universe.

00:23:55: And your goal is to become the Nobel Prize!

00:23:58: I like cooperative games, but this one it's a little bit critical about science because science always says yeah we're all friends so i will win the prize then push away.

00:24:11: So that's not always fun part of science.

00:24:14: Okay

00:24:16: We work altogether on same parameter because the dice represents all of them.

00:24:22: The tools we have actually to, I will say it speak but just listen more to universe.

00:24:29: so there's like James Webb telescope, Hubble telescope, the railroad telescope and that thing is no researcher would want one for himself.

00:24:40: It costs too much.

00:24:43: Imagine how much its cost.

00:24:47: Telescope about one hundred meter wide and you don't need the one.

00:24:51: You need three of them to make interferences.

00:24:54: So yes, that's crazy stuff.

00:24:56: It's government level a national level an international level as tough.

00:25:01: so when your throat dies

00:25:04: if you

00:25:06: Gathered data through all those Instruments

00:25:10: okay?

00:25:10: So

00:25:10: basically has a researcher and then player you choose Two focuses, so two parameters while the one you are studying this year.

00:25:19: So I don't know you Julian?

00:25:21: You will be focused on detecting more stars and detecting more exoplanets.

00:25:29: Okay that's your focus for this.

00:25:31: turn in here.

00:25:34: I'm not aware of what you're studying because i am another researcher.

00:25:40: So I'm hidden behind my screen and i choose, also the exoplanets but also how to detect life on planets.

00:25:50: We have different parameters in science who work together.

00:25:55: so let's imagine that as a first player will throw dice it gives some results.

00:26:02: So more or less Exoplanet stars, life symbols whatever.

00:26:06: Okay

00:26:06: and we get to the dice in a second because it's not with numbers right?

00:26:11: Yeah this is the sixth parameter.

00:26:14: so stars exoplanets live since in life capacity of communication and length-life.

00:26:21: so little symbol And I hope they will please the player Because a lot people would test the game told us that there are beautiful little details, but for me important to make the material attractive.

00:26:35: And so when I throw dice it's the data I've gathered.

00:26:41: But in science i have to be peer-reviewed.

00:26:46: So

00:26:46: you're my peer reviewer because your'e next player.

00:26:51: You have two choices or accept my data Or reject MyData.

00:26:57: Let's say that Really, you're really lucky on the eight dices.

00:27:02: You have four stars and four exoplanets.

00:27:05: that never happens.

00:27:06: but let's say this happens.

00:27:08: So for us it is super good because we are focusing only those two symbols.

00:27:15: so... you will accept them And basically upgrade your tool detection until force level symbols on the dice, so you add four levels.

00:27:29: So now your tools are able to detect understand explain whatever.

00:27:36: a fourth level signal about exoplanet star or whatever.

00:27:41: okay

00:27:42: if You accept it not just you gather data I will gather that and everybody will get our data but the data who are On the dice at this moment?

00:27:52: So let's imagine that Alisa is playing with us and she's totally not focusing those two parameters.

00:28:00: So, she is totally NOT on the exoplanets and stars!

00:28:04: She will get zero upgrade because data won't be helpful for her which is as it works in real life.

00:28:14: And so you play... You make turn around like that?

00:28:17: Oh yeah sorry!

00:28:18: If you don't like... Let imagine when I throw dice there are no stars in the exoplanet will say I don't like it.

00:28:26: So you can throw the dice back, but if you threw the dice... It would become your research!

00:28:32: No more mine.

00:28:34: so it'll be Alisa who have to peer-review

00:28:37: and decide and peer review mine.

00:28:40: And this mechanics of.

00:28:42: You're The One Who Threw The Dice and You Can Choose To Throw Everything Or Just Few Of Them But This Is The Other.

00:28:52: We'll choose.

00:28:52: So you have also to guess what the other player

00:28:57: are

00:28:59: looking for and say, okay if I let's you...I don't know two parameters.

00:29:04: it will be enough for you to accept that but i would get more so on.

00:29:08: Okay!

00:29:09: So help me out.

00:29:10: Daniel..i understand um that i am dependent of the next player ..i get to choose except or reject the data that, at the player before me in his round has found so to speak.

00:29:26: Question you said we don't know our parameters or focuses but are we allowed to share them?

00:29:34: Or will have an advantage if we'd shared then?

00:29:37: or is it more than I would try to lure your in and say well... Oh, please keep it because I also have the exoplanets or I have intelligence and i really want to work with that data together.

00:29:51: With you.

00:29:52: The

00:29:52: both strategy are Are going well in fact?

00:29:56: It's the thing is you can do Whatever you want because some player if your tool about red if people will Go in front of you easy easiest easier.

00:30:09: but if you're to learning, you will disadvantage yourself.

00:30:13: One way and the first level basically... You're quite open because at this point they just like getting bored but with a second level in third-level you become more tricky.

00:30:25: so your question was perfect for next step.

00:30:30: on the second level we had one new possibility On the board, I show you a six-parameter on dice.

00:30:42: And there's also other possibilities as well.

00:30:47: Those are the second and third levels... ...and winning conditions because they explain how to play first development or win.

00:30:59: Before going into the winning condition we allow you to make discovery.

00:31:04: Discovery is cards Like those one, I will show you some of them.

00:31:12: And now

00:31:12: put someone in the picture... ...of the podcast right into the show notes so that if your listening can also look at your podcast player and see the cards?

00:31:23: All these cards are real science card like this one.

00:31:26: i'll show it to you.

00:31:28: The name is AL-H-A-T-FOUR-ZERO ZERO ONE which has a quite strange name.

00:31:35: But the funny thing is, even if you never heard about that.

00:31:38: You probably heard about Bill Clinton Probably and Bill Clinton was the president when this meteorite strike the earth And some scientists say it's look really like life.

00:31:56: So as we can see Oh, it's like if there are worms or whatever.

00:32:05: And so scientists want maybe its life.

00:32:08: The problem is when you say to somebody which we want to attract the media attention If You Say Maybe Here We Have Found Life.

00:32:21: So

00:32:22: Bill Clinton made a huge announcement Like Yeah USA Find Life!

00:32:28: and what was not?

00:32:30: So it's a huge strike back because he just totally was not credible.

00:32:38: more to this kind of announcement.

00:32:41: And

00:32:42: we try to have in the game those kinds of events, but you can use that too To change through the game like discard.

00:32:51: if I've discovered you don't need to remember the name.

00:33:00: I'll

00:33:01: put a link in the show notes and everyone can look it up!

00:33:05: So, there's nice pictures story... The first thing that we get is the effect.

00:33:13: as you can see There are little symbols on top of all cards with the same effects.

00:33:18: The effect is written here just under this picture.

00:33:23: If you have this discovery, it can be used whenever and just make the effect.

00:33:27: The effect on this picture is that you stop the round.

00:33:32: So let's imagine when I threw the dice... ...the dice had a super good result for me!

00:33:40: And i know she will not approve because we are totally not looking at the same thing.

00:33:48: This is finished, so this has accepted.

00:33:49: So you don't have the choice.

00:33:51: It's like that because you've made an announcement telling us your fine life.

00:33:55: But what do say?

00:33:56: Scrap!

00:33:58: You're not credible.

00:33:58: it's up there

00:34:00: And play

00:34:01: with all those real science stories and...so..you need to know the science story but its always more interesting if you know a little bit of them To just change the game.

00:34:15: And it's not just science story, its also initiative.

00:34:20: One I really like and i think the picture is great.

00:34:25: So this

00:34:26: one is

00:34:29: sapphire disk where a group of french people wrote all the history and cultural artistic science background of humans.

00:34:42: They want to create museum on the moon, to protect the history of humankind.

00:34:49: If something happens... On the Moon it will be accessible for eternity because this protected meteorite is protected by Earth and so on.

00:35:05: This group are part of Artemis mission who now actually live.

00:35:12: So you have a lot of story like that.

00:35:16: Obviously there are jokes, I told you about my cat.

00:35:20: so... You probably guess and well there is a cat in the story?

00:35:26: Yes!

00:35:26: There

00:35:27: must be The only question if it's Neri or Riot Or someone else.

00:35:34: It´s Neri.

00:35:37: So this says the card And it's a joke because the Neko virus, Neko is cat in Japanese.

00:35:48: In some real specific board game which name is Twilight Imperium they've created Necrovirus Which is the virus that eats people to death and so on.

00:36:00: Also with the space cats, the Nyan Cat on internet, so we just mixed all the jokes and internets our board games together.

00:36:09: And created cards which speak about cats because it's mandatory for my game there is always cat.

00:36:16: So content works not only on the Internet okay?

00:36:22: I was wondering when i was listening to you maybe at one point but help me out those focuses those parameters that I change them every round.

00:36:35: Is that correct?

00:36:38: Yeah,

00:36:39: each time it's accepted you uh you exchange or stay but sometimes not really working.

00:36:47: depending

00:36:47: on what i want to upgrade depending on What do i feel since the next round would be like okay gotcha and um those cards um yes give me some extra points extra upgrades

00:37:02: and they help you to do nasty things.

00:37:06: Like the Necovirus may allow you to swap your level in one tool for another player, let's say that I'm level five in...I don't know...Length Life?

00:37:19: And use so-that because when i said yes or accept it is not right!

00:37:24: Or if there are insights inside of it then we can say okay Parameter than me.

00:37:33: so we like change and if you have zero I will get zero, and it can be nasty

00:37:42: Okay.

00:37:42: So that's level two right?

00:37:46: And the level three It allows to stop The game instead of the other player Whenever or not whenever want at some point also gets free cards.

00:37:59: Basically, to get cards is a little bit tricky.

00:38:01: Sorry I have the sun behind me so... No worries!

00:38:06: ...I never was so bright.

00:38:10: Well if the no-al is recording actually sitting outside and it's very early morning recording So the Sun is just in his back.

00:38:22: So how did you do to Get Cards?

00:38:25: And the second level, you have to wait that people accept.

00:38:31: So there's always this bluff and trying to find what they want or so on.

00:38:37: You can check two boxes Choose Two Symbols When you go to have the cards... ...you will lose one of your box because you'll have to check if it is looking for discovery And you have only one box to check in the symbols.

00:39:01: So, you have half of the feedback that can be used normally because you're totally focusing on finding something really special!

00:39:12: In terms of games let's say I'm focussing on stars.

00:39:17: when you accept results and there are three stars on the dice I say, okay.

00:39:25: I'm looking for discovery on stars and so with the result of the dice i can draw one card.

00:39:36: How do you know?

00:39:36: You can draw a cards For each pair of dice With same symbol.

00:39:41: you draw a card.

00:39:41: So if there was four stars... ...I could draw two cards Six stars Three cards And that gives you a hint about what's the other are looking for.

00:39:55: So if you made a really good research and you saw me picking three cards, you obviously know that I was looking on this focus.

00:40:05: so you can swap the focus i just had with my card.

00:40:11: If you make lot of research thats great because we have lots of cards but also give other information about what your doing And won the first game when we were testing these mechanics.

00:40:28: Alisa was really not nice with me because I didn't think about that in this way and she said, okay you just made a lot of discurrie but i take all your... Your level and I was a little bit sad, then she won.

00:40:43: Okay got you get this at the beginning.

00:40:45: You can hide it a little because yeah just about to roll today.

00:40:49: But then that one point if he cannot hide anymore And again you will also mature by the way those upgrades Yep Those levels These are visible everyone every time okay?

00:41:03: No so these are hidden right which means I'm doing my research.

00:41:09: I am collecting the cards, accepting or rejecting data from a player before me but then i need to be observing what he is taking in and what they are rejecting so that can get somewhat of an idea right now.

00:41:28: And that's how it works in a real research group.

00:41:31: Because you know some people on the other side of the world are looking something close, but they also want the novel so they won't tell everything... But yes or no?

00:41:42: Okay wonderful!

00:41:43: How long does this game run around?

00:41:46: and then what about the whole game?

00:41:49: The first game may last I don't know fifteen minutes because we just have to get rules.

00:41:56: Once you get the rules, first level is five minutes because it's really easy.

00:42:00: The second-level can go up to fifteen minutes and third-level may be accelerating games.

00:42:09: so... Finally!

00:42:13: Third-level is often shorter than sixth-level Because its more reactive.

00:42:21: To get back on the third level cards and you will pick more or less data.

00:42:30: On the third level, when we play two three four players it's quite quick but if wanted to make a game can play upto five maybe six.

00:42:40: that would save five player And then wait for other person throw dice before he can do something.

00:42:49: So, we introduced this third level where you have to observe the dice and not just at your turn.

00:43:01: As you see on the card it's written one five two four three.

00:43:08: It is a repetition of the symbol of the dice.

00:43:12: Let us say that if you pick We call that the constellation, so you pick two for a constellation and are still looking at stars.

00:43:22: So any moment if there is... If there's two and four topics or symbols where the same four symbol on the dice whatever which symbol it is You can say stop I've discovered something.

00:43:46: so even if you're your turn to accept, i can stop.

00:43:50: What is the bonus?

00:43:52: To do that!

00:43:53: I will get a free card which is great but also it's the same thing as the discovery...I have only one focus left..so I'm on six chances of having something interesting.

00:44:05: I end the turn with that, more than just this card.

00:44:18: All the other player will pay only with the four dice left.

00:44:41: So you slow the gathering of data for the other players and get quicker cards, so that's all to do!

00:44:52: Okay this is just a recap... It's like a surprise discovery right?

00:45:00: I see two symbols.

00:45:04: I see two symbols, one showing twice and the other four times.

00:45:10: And then I have to say stop!

00:45:12: I made a discovery... Now i take the symbol that I need at this point so I seal it and the player before me continues his turn with only ...

00:45:24: It's finished for everybody can gather data but four dices, so it's really less interesting.

00:45:35: You have only half of the data and you can also steal the dice who are not of any interest for you like let us say that symbol has four exoplanets and only two stars, it's not interesting to steal the two stars.

00:45:54: You will steal the four exoplanets because even if you don't use them... ...because you didn't have checked this symbol, you just blocked those symbols for each other so that

00:46:04: somebody would worry about it.

00:46:06: Yeah!

00:46:06: So it can be a little bit nasty.

00:46:09: Okay gotcha That is third and final round.

00:46:12: Now how do I win?

00:46:13: Eventually i'll be upgraded on all of my focuses on all parameters, yes.

00:46:21: And what happens then?

00:46:23: What's the final... The

00:46:25: thing which is interesting is you don't need to reach all the top level as a win.

00:46:32: it's also a bet because this mechanics.

00:46:35: I told about trying to observe dice and be the first one who say stop.

00:46:40: Because if we're too having these two in four consolation choice It will only be the person that says stop we'll have the reward.

00:46:52: So for winning it's same, at this point I will check those boxes that are called CETI.

00:47:00: there is two box because they're choice and when you look live can't upgrade putting everything of yourself in game.

00:47:13: so in research So at this point, you need to have AT LEAST eight levels of different parameters.

00:47:21: Because there are eight dice and... At least the same number.

00:47:29: And it's better if more than a level of the parameter on your card and other dice.

00:47:37: If I said that in a more compressive way Let say that You have three in all the parameters like stars, life and so on.

00:47:50: If when it's not matter if I throw dice you throw at some point... ...if there is less than three or less time to same symbol on the dice.. ..I can say seti and i win!

00:48:10: So basically even if your late in the game, like you have only two symbols everywhere.

00:48:17: You can still say okay I will try to get lucky and... ...I know that the others are better than me but i'll go quicker on their research To find life And maybe it would win.

00:48:30: In fact this balance between having The best equipment of the world Okay trying really fine which is a real balance when you do science.

00:48:45: You always have to balance between the materials, their state of research and trying to find something... It's all the spice in this game because sometimes we've played more than four hundredths playtesters so it's quite a lot!

00:49:07: And at the beginning people played like in a stressed way.

00:49:12: They want to drive, I don't know five six seven upgrades in each parameter which is too much because you have only eight dices.

00:49:22: so as long that it's coherent with the cross and check an upgrade on your card It's okay.

00:49:34: So if you're really lucky You can win With only eight upgrades It's enough.

00:49:41: Yes, and tell me just to recap so I as an individual researcher player I decide when i start looking for life right which means

00:49:54: totally

00:49:55: my fellow players they might still be going for the upgrade

00:50:01: exactly

00:50:02: like thing that died in the right you know icon.

00:50:07: but put my guests down on the settee field and then roll the dice against that, right?

00:50:13: Totally.

00:50:14: And which is the best part because even if you're not... If you've not got the best tools You can just outsmart everybody.

00:50:26: Got ya Wow!

00:50:29: So I understand total length might be somewhere around half an hour to do it all.

00:50:40: Is that correct?

00:50:42: So if you want to go through each level, in fact this depends really on the experience of a player when I play with board game addicts they go directly to third-level and its finish is like ten minutes.

00:50:58: And then when i played with people who were not used to board games It can last for two hours But you're not forced to do everything.

00:51:15: You can play the first level, wait a little bit go to second-level and so on.

00:51:21: And those levels are steps Because you can play it at your speed At your rate.

00:51:31: It's easy.

00:51:35: If you are interested just go.

00:51:39: Yes,

00:51:39: and you also mentioned the cards right there.

00:51:41: That might be interesting in trigger an interesting I don't know discussion of maybe even research Right?

00:51:46: So so how many different cards are?

00:51:48: they're

00:51:49: actually we have sixty cars.

00:51:51: it will be a little bit

00:51:52: more.

00:51:53: And because we are still speaking with some partner Because One card is still pending, by example because I will not give the name but it's a project related to NASA and we want do everything square-and-fair.

00:52:13: So... We ask all the rights of everything in collaboration.

00:52:17: if you go on their website a page which is science and rules.

00:52:24: And if you go down to the page, You will see all the collaboration we have because for us as scientists it's really super important To make everything clear.

00:52:34: so If some people See your card they have The.

00:52:39: oh yeah I just was forgetting one thing.

00:52:42: So we spoke about game design but in games You have the rulebook and you have an info book.

00:52:48: This is a book which explains all of science content, a little bit more virtually to just give feedback and hints.

00:53:02: like you don't only have two sentences on your cards but can learn a lot more.

00:53:07: And if it's really triggered or interested go to the website click on the partnership so European Special Agency or any other people who worked with us and you go directly on the research website.

00:53:27: So it's a super nice way to basically learn,

00:53:32: And

00:53:33: You don't need To do It just if one card Trigger Any Interest

00:53:41: And that said, using it as a serious game maybe for specific learning intent.

00:53:48: That might be exactly what you did in the conversation that you want to start or research and I can totally envision this being fun way of introducing that topic depending on context and learning intent.

00:54:08: Um, so did I mean you don't need to know anything right about the science world or that obviously equation?

00:54:20: Okay.

00:54:21: And what is some?

00:54:22: yeah

00:54:23: The thing is There's a plenty of science game and If i create mine it because i'm not happy With what i see It's Because A lot Of Science Official Science Game Are or science, or games.

00:54:41: But not both!

00:54:44: I saw a lot of games where we contain real science.

00:54:49: but were the game mechanics are... ...not existing?

00:54:53: Like there's this quiz.

00:54:54: you take cards and say okay do you know what is Kospar?

00:54:57: yeah i want to point.

00:54:59: and Where Is The Fun And Where'S The Attraction?

00:55:02: That It' s like it's a quiz.

00:55:04: so basically its an exam in an exam, and the other end I saw so many games which is like related to quantum or whatever.

00:55:15: And when you dig a little bit yeah just it's a cat!

00:55:18: The cats appear or disappear?

00:55:21: What is the connection with quantums?

00:55:24: So... Yeah..the goal is really to make bridge between them and i think its stupid to create game asking you know already the field if I want to explain you the field.

00:55:36: So no, it's really for everybody and those three levels allow people who don't know anything about astronomy or the field of the game... ...and speak with experts because at some point an expert will be super happy.

00:55:55: we saw that we drank dice and hopped so on.

00:55:59: when some experts we've made some play tests with the University of Geneva, and they add a lot of fun just like okay I know these things.

00:56:12: And at some point that don't know all the cards.

00:56:14: so even for experts They will learn something.

00:56:18: Yes!

00:56:19: If you have an expert and some beginner The expert would be We'll have space to explain.

00:56:26: yes

00:56:26: absolutely.

00:56:29: when you mentioned, I remember.

00:56:33: Not sure if there's still some trace...I'll try to find it.

00:56:38: but i so remember when we facilitated a workshop at Seren at the open door or the neighborhood day and had We had Lego series play back in the days.

00:56:50: that were what we used, but then we deliberately mixed physicists and and the neighbors at a table.

00:56:57: And you know gave them some questions to build an explain.

00:57:01: it just sparked such a wonderful discussion of that conversation that might have not happened.

00:57:09: if you stand in line in this supermarket behind neighbor or physicist question for What is, I mean how do you wrap it up?

00:57:23: Okay if you facilitated or... How would you encourage the Game Master to wrap it.

00:57:32: So at one point yes someone won found life and what is a nice way to reflect upon the insights that you had or ideas, so now you can comfortably say all right I grasp how not only science could work but also about Drake's equation.

00:58:03: But then maybe what struggle are decisions i have to go through when invest my life?

00:58:13: If I give my life to do research and not being sure if it will be taken from me or have not been sure too, this would lead something.

00:58:27: What other ways of wrapping up?

00:58:30: For the facilitation what we do is... So on Drake Dice, it's not already finished because we are still doing the exercise especially at school but just as cool.

00:58:48: What you have to know is that Alisa will present Drake DICE and the workshop for plenty of conferences.

00:58:55: so obviously Serious Play when we'll have a pleasure to meet again.

00:59:00: But also Isaga which was one of the biggest academic Gathering about games.

00:59:08: and if you want to come one day, I really encourage you because it's very great.

00:59:12: But also um.

00:59:13: I didn't show you everything all the cards because so too long but little story inside them To have to be when we create a game about science Really?

00:59:28: Wanted to be sure that this real science side.

00:59:30: So we go two Real experts and ask them to give their give us feedback or contents.

00:59:37: And we were super lucky.

00:59:40: in fact, we're not so super lucky.

00:59:43: Alisa made an incredible job.

00:59:46: she just go to reach the biggest authority of the world in this field of science.

00:59:55: She started with European Astrobiology Institute which back us a lot and review everything.

01:00:07: so every dot in this game was reviewed by top scientists.

01:00:12: and also she Go to have the feedback of the cost bar committee for space research.

01:00:19: Basically They are Kind of international union, too speak about Space Research with really great scientists And I'm honored to have met.

01:00:32: some of them were Incredible.

01:00:36: I just met a few of them.

01:00:37: And Alisa is invited to go this... ...conferences, this annual meeting of the Cosparts in Florence To make people play Drake Dice.

01:00:50: So make experts like Drake DICE Make teachers like DrakeDice But also to make magic show about Drake Dices and explain the story Drake equation and our universe through magic.

01:01:08: So to go back to your question When we create a game, We have the workshop online which is accessible To every teacher whatever they need officially obviously the material but outside of that it's Accessible And you have Walkthrough To the drake dice.

01:01:31: things were developing special walkthrough for not just school but common places and a little hint.

01:01:43: I'm also working with Cedric and Jan, you know really well to create a workshop based on the hop-for-series gaming in enterprises.

01:01:57: so this is a workshop management and content video at the same time, which is quite great.

01:02:07: So when you facilitate this kind of game You have different way.

01:02:11: what I suggest in what we do now with Drake Dice but it may change in a future It's... We make people play..we start- I always start with question like okay Do think there's alien?

01:02:24: Do you think there is extraterrestrial life And just make people Think and speak to get involved?

01:02:30: because with these kinds question, everybody have an opinion.

01:02:34: Everybody say yeah I think there's something or not and blah-blah... And it is really the kicker!

01:02:42: It was a moment when i tried to have feedback of everyone as welcoming as possible.

01:02:50: I never said no but that's interesting point.

01:02:54: why?

01:02:56: I don't know, we will play.

01:03:04: You'll get endurance by playing and when you play first or second maybe third level often people gets excited about the game because if you get involved a little bit it creates emotions.

01:03:22: And then reach to the third level or time limit I say, okay.

01:03:27: How do you feel?

01:03:28: And people say oh i'm excited it's great and uh is steal my data or this thing was really nice to see how i am super happy of that.

01:03:38: and just by having the feedback on the game itself You have feedback on um The emotion and you can relate it really easily.

01:03:49: On research because after a Thursday It's the same thing in research.

01:03:53: You may have this kind of.

01:03:55: hey, I find something.

01:03:57: no it was a dude i will win.

01:03:58: oh No Something happens.

01:04:00: its made fake meteorite or whatever.

01:04:03: and also after After this more emotional And Investing part in making the comparison?

01:04:12: I try to tackle few little point.

01:04:15: there is few cards, I didn't show you one which is really important for me.

01:04:20: Is the card name a pale blue dots?

01:04:23: Okay.

01:04:24: I don't

01:04:25: know if it's ring a bell or not at all.

01:04:28: Not at all!

01:04:29: If I tell Carl...if I named Carl Sagan did he ring a Bell or not?

01:04:36: Nope.

01:04:37: Okay, Carl Sagon basically made space attractive during the seventies.

01:04:45: It was when the first outreach director of NASA would try to make people interested about space.

01:04:54: And he published this really well-known picture from Voyager, which is a pale blue dot and you see... So I don't know with the sun so like that?

01:05:08: You see just it's one little white stripe on the black and blue skies.

01:05:19: And in this little white stripe, there's one dot here.

01:05:25: You will for sure not see it.

01:05:29: The dot is earth.

01:05:32: And Carl Sagan said everything you always know you discover your experience...you see every thing that you love Every person you met All those are existing on this little pale blue dot.

01:05:49: We have only one spaceship Earth and long time before the Ecological consideration it was telling us that's like we can't waste our planet, we've only won.

01:06:06: And that for me which is really important with space.

01:06:09: Space is space.

01:06:11: stars make dream human since the beginning of The Human existence.

01:06:18: I'm pretty sure that even our Monkey ancestors is not.

01:06:24: monkey isn't a good word, but I don't have it in English.

01:06:26: sorry We are looking to the star.

01:06:29: It's something everywhere on the planet.

01:06:32: There's no question about gender religion age whatever.

01:06:36: Everybody experienced that once at least one time in his life just looking to start and feel this Feel the universe.

01:06:44: I don't have a word.

01:06:45: Wow, and so that's for me one of the points of the game.

01:06:50: is it explain us that It doesn't matter if we're alone or not We we have only one earth.

01:06:58: And if you want to maybe one day speak with other species?

01:07:03: We have to take care about our spaceship.

01:07:06: Yes, got you.

01:07:07: Wow Daniel thank you so much and I'll put that picture of cars again in the earth from six billion kilometers right?

01:07:19: That dot-picture i will put it also not only to show notes but now on the podcast players that support pictures.

01:07:27: But what I understand is a series game.

01:07:31: yes Signs outreach tool, right?

01:07:38: This is a game.

01:07:41: A moment that you are creating with that thing That will help us to Bring players in contact with signs and even if you know as he mentioned there already experts Right they're still something in for them, right either In that expert bubble or With other fellow players at just one getting Getting getting into the field right or getting interested in to feel we're just getting and first contact with a few.

01:08:11: Wow, wow I'm just looking at that time.

01:08:15: And then i'm wondering if I can ask you maybe three more.

01:08:19: final question okay before We get into all The other things that are happening around?

01:08:24: Uh the game and yes for sure.

01:08:27: I will not only link the website I will also link um a few conferences That You said I know they're All on the website too where you Can Meet, Al or Alisa and then where you can play the game.

01:08:42: Or if we're going to have a look at materials that has been created.

01:08:46: So three more questions.

01:08:49: What's your ultimate facilitation tip for our listeners out there?

01:08:52: Doesn't it have to be only for The Drake Dice?

01:08:56: It is not just about The Drake dice.

01:08:58: My ultimate fascination tips are live story and storytelling.

01:09:06: I will not make it right now because this would take at least five minutes and i know that we're short on time.

01:09:13: but when I facilitate two days ago another game since one.

01:09:20: And for me is if you share a part of yourself, If you show that your involved in the game people will get involved Because they want to share moments.

01:09:34: I know this is not always the belief of people in facilitation world.

01:09:41: You have all ways to step back, feedback from the back-of-the-room and so on which is at one end super great when i see experts doing that really thrilled.

01:09:58: but for me it's less my way because At least for the kicker.

01:10:05: I need to be involved and make... To start a dream.

01:10:11: This special moment we share when we facilitate is a gift And, We have to make it feel as A gift!

01:10:22: And..to start this Gift-sharing moment You have to start by giving.

01:10:31: So find the story which is fun, neutral enough because you don't want to bias people obviously but a fun and concern new.

01:10:43: And doesn't matter if it's make look you well or stupid or whatever.

01:10:49: one story I like too tell when i speak about quantum physics tools Make me look like a nice person because it was social Social experience.

01:11:02: and yeah, It wasn't that nice but I don't care.

01:11:08: the really interesting part is how?

01:11:13: as impacted me other persons and After people can do whatever they want with this story.

01:11:23: They can make their old story based on this one.

01:11:26: They create, they can... I hope that will experiment try leave the story but or they just live it don't care about it.

01:11:36: But That's The point.

01:11:39: when where?

01:11:41: i have best feedback and the best reaction is a moment people laugh cry shout And say I rely in that.

01:11:50: understand I feel something.

01:11:52: so life.

01:11:55: To wrap up all that, live your workshop and make it shining by life.

01:12:02: Wonderful!

01:12:02: Well thank you for that.

01:12:05: Try this tip... And in a nutshell what's the secret sauce of Drake's Dice?

01:12:15: What makes it work?

01:12:19: A lot of work.

01:12:22: to be honest I'm not sure there is a secret sauce.

01:12:26: And also we're connected on LinkedIn, so I know you saw my Dev Diary and i'm late because My last one have to be Published a few days ago.

01:12:37: So it will be One of my day's duties.

01:12:39: but To make A game Whatever It doesn't count Which type Of Game it is?

01:12:47: It can Be a Science Game Board Game Facilitation Game.

01:12:51: I don't care for me.

01:12:52: the only real The secret is playtest, try it and feedback.

01:13:00: You can have the best theory of the world.

01:13:04: if you don't experiment with that theory experience It will not be good.

01:13:09: With Drake Dice we start this idea to have something which is engaging for the main public who are not players.

01:13:20: but Try try the first experience where so bad it was failure.

01:13:28: and It's important because often when people share Something especially internet they will say.

01:13:36: It's a big success everything was great, and it's like success.

01:13:39: story is not I don't remember.

01:13:44: created A game or anything which was Success from the beginning.

01:13:52: So, okay maybe I have this answer.

01:13:54: The secret source is failure.

01:13:58: so fail.

01:14:00: i think it was set God in with all that.

01:14:02: Fail fast fails soon failed cheap fail.

01:14:05: uh fail fast fail cheap fail...I don't remember a third one.

01:14:09: fail as soon as possible and That's the point.

01:14:13: make prototype try fail And if you fail.

01:14:16: that's a good sign Because you won't fail after.

01:14:20: Yeah, cut here.

01:14:22: Wow!

01:14:23: Thank you so much and I will dare to ask is there anything we did not talk about?

01:14:31: Anything around Drake's dice that our listeners should know?

01:14:35: look at...I Know There Is a crowdfunding going on.

01:14:39: i'll link That too.

01:14:41: We Mentioned the Conferences of the details, I'll put some pictures on the podcast and in show notes.

01:14:52: Is there anything else that you want to share?

01:14:55: Where can we buy it?

01:14:56: When do we buy?

01:14:57: this is also a way to get hold an early package or prototype.

01:15:05: walk us through when will be available.

01:15:08: so thank you for those questions because i always forgetting stuff.

01:15:14: I will just make one other little insight story, because... ...I want to speak about one card which is the only bad card in the game.

01:15:24: When you draw a Discovery Card it's always good for you not for the other but its' good for YOU!

01:15:30: This one is really special.

01:15:31: It´s the Caster Syndrome.

01:15:33: The Caster syndrome Is real problem we are facing right now on Earth.

01:15:40: when there isn't infinite space In the close space and with all the satellites And satellite constellation to not give names It's in one end destroying our night sky.

01:15:57: So For us, there is a light pollution so on.

01:16:00: but also for people who do astronomy when you have plenty of satellites You can't detect A small signal To detect exoplanets Main people, they will say I don't care.

01:16:16: But where we care is We'll be trapped on Earth if we just continue to send satellites all the time Because there's a limited space and at some point Just trying to go through Will not possible because The broken satellite continues to turn And it will smash into the rocket.

01:16:39: So All the GPS stuff that we have will not get it

01:16:44: more.

01:16:46: So this little point is, we are in the part of humankind story where you have a really super high tech life and we can destroy that and go back And space is one of the weakest place.

01:17:09: There's so many mistakes we can do in space.

01:17:11: And that is why we create this card, which is Castle Syndrome.

01:17:15: when you make too much discovery and throw too many things into space everybody will lose because it ends where trap on space and its finished.

01:17:27: So... It was not exactly a question but something for me really important Because people are always thrilled by technology And I'm not saying that technology is bad.

01:17:39: I am working in science, so obviously i need technology and like technology It's just everything has consequences.

01:17:46: So think about it!

01:17:48: And to go back into your question...

01:17:50: Yes, there are more interesting points right?

01:17:52: I'm happy to you know.

01:17:56: link More details on the Kessler

01:17:59: syndrome

01:18:00: Syndrome and then also ideas how clean up space, right?

01:18:05: And not just polluted with more technology that at one point will be out of service or run into other issues.

01:18:17: Yeah absolutely

01:18:19: and this is really a citizen vote.

01:18:22: so you Buying this product on this project will change space future.

01:18:28: So we're all involved in the Space Future and Space Future is kind of our own future, so Okay.

01:18:36: But to go back to your question too where to find Rakes dice?

01:18:40: Actually you can't find it only on the Kickstarter.

01:18:43: are as a pre-order The.

01:18:46: so obviously the price is lower under Kickstarter.

01:18:51: We totally know it's quite a high price for game.

01:18:56: So basically without the shipping, its thirty-two Swiss francs so little bit more than thirty four euros.

01:19:07: The thing is that shipping from Switzerland even if it's France or whatever It's quite expensive.

01:19:14: This one problem... The other things which are important to tell we prefer make games while more expensive, but who are local.

01:19:25: So we print in Germany.

01:19:26: yes We refuse to print things in China because in terms of ecology or in term of humanity is not respectful.

01:19:34: so the game will be printed quite today tomorrow I don't know.

01:19:42: it's The order.

01:19:44: our have been made Yes and some people who order its will receive it think probably September, maybe for sure before December.

01:19:56: And after that's for the each game we have printed and which not sold.

01:20:03: it will be available through University Shop.

01:20:08: so now were looking to university of Geneva obviously which is

01:20:12: a partner

01:20:15: but also with some universities in France or Germany.

01:20:19: The goal is if we have those distributors, it's cost less for the shipping because they'll be already in UAE.

01:20:28: And there are two other things related to ethics... Why going through university or science place?

01:20:37: So probably it will be plantarium and stuff like that!

01:20:40: Is when you buy a game at a big shop I won't tell any name Just to give you a rough idea, the shop will take fifty percent of their price.

01:20:54: So that doesn't let a lot for printing and authors because they also pay the others which would be in this case Alisa so on.

01:21:07: I prefered giving money to university and science place who do outreach.

01:21:14: Our goal is create new network of sales to sell but which is more ethical and helping science in the future.

01:21:28: The other thing, if you go right now on Kickstarter.

01:21:33: we make it a local Swiss platform because try as local as possible.

01:21:39: We are also in partnership with Senegalese from Senegal, I'm not sure in English.

01:21:46: From Senegal Association about outreach and education especially to help women and kids.

01:21:55: it's based on Dakar And people can buy two games one game for themselves and one game to give this association.

01:22:04: Okay If we have more money I was saying too much money, but there's never too many because we use it to this kind of thing.

01:22:16: If there is more money We will go To train more people and make the tool The Drake Dice Tool more accessible.

01:22:25: Okay Because This Is One Last Thing All the games are boardgames for one reason You Don't Need Electricity you don't need update you have everything in a box.

01:22:35: so if you want to Make People Dream About Space in the other side of the world, you can.

01:22:42: You don't need anything!

01:22:44: Wow wonderful and then I will make sure that.

01:22:50: yes i'll link to.

01:22:51: We Make It site...I know it's limited but again Still, if someone wants to get in contact with you I'll also put your contact details and at least contact details in the show notes.

01:23:04: So please add any time If you want make a difference And if you wanna join The Cause and if You Want To Make Sure That We Are Aware Get Other People Aware of Space Future.

01:23:21: Use Drake's Dice.

01:23:22: for that please do get in contact with Daniel and Alisa.

01:23:27: Wonderful, wow!

01:23:30: Thank you so much for all your time of the details.

01:23:36: I now have a job to bring together this show notes but it will be lovely to re-listen our conversation With that... any final words from you?

01:23:53: So there's a lot of final words, but the one where we matter more is We're all in charge Of our life Our future.

01:24:02: Our common humankind.

01:24:05: so our planets are involved.

01:24:08: Please be involved.

01:24:09: I don't care In what?

01:24:10: But being involved Don't let The hope fade.

01:24:16: It's...we create those games Because we want to people Regain Hope About humanity about future, technology and science.

01:24:26: I know this is a hard period for everybody.

01:24:31: we'll go on the fields in different countries.

01:24:36: We see that with all of politics people are tired, exhausted afraid whatever.

01:24:43: so don't let it go.

01:24:46: That's the main strength humankind because they never give up.

01:24:50: Do what you do.

01:24:53: Thank You Elle and to all our listeners.

01:24:57: Feels like there's definitely one episode that he just press play again, listen it from the beginning.

01:25:03: thank you Elle And To All Our Listeners Have a look at The Very Long Show Notes.

01:25:09: Get in Touch Bye-bye!

01:25:19: comments and feedback.