00:00:02: Hello and welcome to the serious games podcast all about playful methods for interactive trainings and facilitation.

00:00:10: Let's get started.

00:00:11: And Welcome back to the series games podcast, and today once again I have two guests.

00:00:16: um i'm looking forward To this conversation because I will be traveling uh in a couple of weeks.

00:00:22: Um, I would be traveling to the uk to the university of exeter?

00:00:26: And they're the play posium.

00:00:31: Now, if you look this up online and in the social media You will see.

00:00:38: This is a gathering dedicated to explore how play can bring more human and pro-social forms of society And off course that's worth full episode maybe multiple episodes at once.

00:00:51: I'm back And it's in the UK apparently for the first time.

00:00:56: Okay, we'll get into all of backstory.

00:00:58: how what happened?

00:01:00: What is InnoPlay Studio and of course how Martin Kuners and Andy Adam are connected when you really had this idea.

00:01:13: Well First of All to both of you welcome to the podcast.

00:01:16: Thank You Julian!

00:01:17: Great To Be Here!

00:01:17: Really

00:01:18: good to hear.

00:01:20: And here's my normally made traditional questions, okay?

00:01:24: What should our listeners know about you?

00:01:27: and how do you pitch... How do you describe the play posium in an elevator pitched style?

00:01:33: Well they need to know that you.

00:01:34: Hmm

00:01:35: what are we talking about with you then?

00:01:37: Well I think something about me maybe don't discuss enough is the types of play that sort, I do a lot running.

00:01:52: A lot of gardening and work in innovation entrepreneurship because thats my discipline area And i actually don't see much difference between those three worlds.

00:02:02: That is for me The interesting thing about this world of Play that ive accidentally fallen into.

00:02:12: You go then we will do the elevator pitch.

00:02:19: I always like to not be in a box but that is, i think good to know.

00:02:25: But the boxes that I do fit in... ...is that I'm trained as a researcher in life sciences so back in my lifetime it feels now did research on kidney disease and what.

00:02:39: always since I was a kid playing games, making games breaking games at least the rules both in-in The Games but also in life I always thought that was the odd duckling of my family until i actually left the Netherlands and traveled to world And worked on different places.

00:02:58: Thought oh...I'm not the Odd Duckling.

00:03:00: My parents and brothers are the Odd ducklings!

00:03:04: Maybe they're listening.

00:03:05: Hello!

00:03:09: That is quite something, right?

00:03:11: From kidneys to play and from the circle economy to play... Let's start with the play posium And then I'm sure i will get out a few more details of why what you are doing Especially Adam What you just said there is your play as state rather than You know Play as something separate work, or life?

00:03:35: Or maybe more.

00:03:37: So Playposium... what is it?

00:03:40: Playposum is a unique gathering and an experience that's place-based.

00:03:49: so last year was in Colorado up on the mountains.

00:03:52: this year It has been very large festival tent at The University of Exeter in English countryside and so that's what it is.

00:04:07: And I put, probably there are a lot of people who want us to sort of define more but defines itself by where It Is and Who Turns Up?

00:04:16: In countryside Exeter South UK.

00:04:22: right now though i understood you were little bit up north in Tiriton Where You Both Live.

00:04:30: Is that correct?

00:04:31: Yeah, Martin's recently moved here.

00:04:34: I've lived there for over ten years and it is on the X River which runs down through to Exeter.

00:04:45: It's a lovely green rolling hills English countryside beautiful place.

00:04:50: Okay sounds already very playful.

00:04:53: what made Exeter did the right place for the Platosium to land after Colorado?

00:04:58: Yeah, so I think this is we were heavily involved in LA which was the first physical and person one.

00:05:05: Martin's Dutch.

00:05:06: So he sort of just invited himself like it was like David Lisa We're coming.

00:05:09: And then

00:05:10: when

00:05:10: we got

00:05:11: there

00:05:11: they were like oh we gonna do some with us?

00:05:13: They very gracious and generous people and they let us get quite involved.

00:05:18: That that didn't lead into us being very heavily involved last year for Colorado and really curating their experience.

00:05:27: And the first one was about techniques.

00:05:29: We're very focused on what sort of activates play.

00:05:32: then we moved in Colorado, we've very much looked at you that the playful stance of the individual and it worked really hard to curate something That Was Really About The Person and It Made Sense This Year To Go Right Playful Society.

00:05:46: um...and I think it.

00:05:49: You Know It Was Difficult When We Were Traveling To The States Last year?

00:05:53: Where we where were welcome?

00:05:57: was there any challenges at the borders?

00:06:01: And We when we're doing play posium.

00:06:03: Well, like all this is the year that it probably if It's gonna leave the US maybe This Is a good Year for it just to have A year Somewhere.

00:06:11: Else

00:06:12: Things Are Very uncertain in The World and So so We Thought That This Was the Opportunity.

00:06:18: and then At the Same Time This This Theme Was Bubbling Up with Us This Playful Society.

00:06:23: so What does it mean?

00:06:25: what does that look like?

00:06:26: and maybe, what is the contrast.

00:06:28: So in our view we think there's a generosity of kindness or joy to play And may be not get too political but just say when you see cruelty Or some sort putting down or bullying others Play actually even in children, play actually breaks that down.

00:06:54: It helps get rid of the difference and so we were very keen to bring it to Exeter not for a political reason but for the contextual reasons.

00:07:05: then just say right well play brings people together.

00:07:07: let's celebrate that and lets put on this stage at England.

00:07:12: To build upon is last five years or so developing a whole community here in Exeter around playful pedagogy and innovation through play.

00:07:24: And we were always, on the back of our mind where... We wanted some kind of gathering here anyway.

00:07:29: so when the planet's aligned,

00:07:32: that ocean

00:07:32: came to us!

00:07:34: I suppose it brings us onto then?

00:07:36: We've got this amazing group of volunteers this year.

00:07:40: So we have been actually able build something which is much bigger and then us, is quite mad and wonderful because we've got this incredible group of folk who some will be volunteering on the day.

00:07:54: Some are actually taking part in doing all their work beforehand.

00:07:58: so it's really lovely to have that celebration All

00:08:02: right.

00:08:02: Well, let's start because now I'm just going through my questions but... Let's start with the play posium and to set up And you know it's multi-day gathering.

00:08:12: Can he walk us though a little bit what i would expect?

00:08:15: Actually..I will be first timer.

00:08:17: so how would that feel like What we'll do for me?

00:08:25: not have FOMO, everything happening.

00:08:29: And then we'll get a little bit more into your backgrounds and all the other wonderful things that you're doing and of course your motivation.

00:08:34: so arriving oh well I'm gonna fly in going to take the train down to Exeter and i think i'm gonna live at The University.

00:08:43: yeah they had uh but guess how it's there?

00:08:46: So what will be happening?

00:08:50: let start with just on the two-hour mark by train from London.

00:08:56: So it's closer than people necessarily realize when you look at a map, and its beautiful train ride particularly once you get into the South West.

00:09:06: Exeter itself is a cathedral town city And It's nestled in the X River.

00:09:14: so it has got river that runs through then goes down to a large estuary.

00:09:18: Then The University is set in an old arboretum.

00:09:23: So it's got these beautiful trees and its on a hill, etc.

00:09:26: so we're very fortunate for our campus as It's heavily treed And there's a very beautiful site itself.

00:09:33: I won't say all of the buildings that were built in the fifties and sixties or even more recently are beautiful things but at least The trees are gorgeous!

00:09:41: You arrive you arrive next to an old Roman settlement.

00:09:46: So we have a Roman war, it's got some really deep history.

00:09:49: so that is also something about ESA.

00:09:52: you can feel when your in the place.

00:09:54: Heavily bombed and the Second World War has some of that as well to feel like left over fifties-and-sixties architecture which was not maybe the best filled out stuff in the town.

00:10:08: And then at university itself You come up on a hill And it's a campus university.

00:10:15: So we've got the large campus and business schools at one end, luckily in the bottom of half-a-hill I suppose is still a hill!

00:10:25: And then there are lovely U shaped buildings behind them.

00:10:30: when you arrive they'll be big red & white.

00:10:38: I will choose to not put pictures on the podcast, just leave everyone with their own imagination.

00:10:43: How it looks and arrive at Exeter have a look if matches.

00:10:48: And then... I don't know we actually propose how you're going feel?

00:10:55: Our participants in feedback is different emotions or experiences But what we definitely are in the fore of our mind is that you'll have the opportunity to meet their participants and us.

00:11:12: And, really a large part of it as what we call the pro-social aspect of Aeposium.

00:11:21: So there's things where maybe if you looked at another conference You would end up registering or going into having coffee awkwardly trying to find somebody talk too.

00:11:37: We work a bit of magic there and we don't believe in that sort of awkwardness at the start or during anything.

00:11:43: so, we've worked quite hard creating space for people naturally and easily connect.

00:11:51: That's part about InnoPlay work.

00:11:53: Julian At Inno Play have really worked on how do you get into warm and connected really quickly.

00:12:05: So we do a lot of work in the area.

00:12:09: Got you, let me just ask an evening question okay?

00:12:13: Of course I'm responsible for my feelings but still your inviting right!

00:12:16: And you deliberately decided not to have that traditional keynotes workshops four day cognitive overload.

00:12:29: But

00:12:30: you definitely... Oh no, there'll be some cognitive

00:12:33: overload!

00:12:33: Oh my god I get it!

00:12:34: That's happening Julie

00:12:39: don't

00:12:39: worry about that.

00:12:39: There are some unique ways that your craft thing is invitation right?

00:12:44: And if you're making sure and i'm not going to call like networking but they will be those moments of encounters meetings, those connective moments.

00:12:57: How do you do that?

00:12:58: I mean especially when you say at Interplay that's our core of your work and can you give us a few tips or tricks what is important to you?

00:13:13: I think

00:13:15: with the coconut overload difference here it does not where throwing all at you.

00:13:24: It's an invitation to join us on a journey.

00:13:26: if you sometimes want to step away from the journey that we encourage, but we continuously invite you on your journey and then play with energy ,with focus, divergent thinking etc.

00:13:44: in couple of ways .

00:13:45: And one thing usually is little bit in back.

00:13:47: most things compared networking or idea creating is not in that room with the expert being on a pedestal giving you all information.

00:14:00: It's having meaningful conversations at the coffee table, so we try to have those moments much longer and more intertwined.

00:14:12: The other thing I think often when talking about play think about activities.

00:14:18: We love to say we play more as a feeling than an activity of our game.

00:14:24: and it doesn't mean that has be always happy, clappy fun joy-feeling.

00:14:29: It has been the whole human experience because everyone who comes together brings their whole self.

00:14:34: And in the beginning you've got lots assumptions with reservations.

00:14:38: The conversations can be awkward and we're trying a lot of disturbances distractions and remind people, they're humans.

00:14:49: And what are the human needs?

00:14:51: The human needs for connection and belonging certainty uncertainty.

00:14:56: so we really approaching uh...the experience from all those needs rather than just certainty or information.

00:15:06: yes you go first.

00:15:09: yeah I think to answer your question directly about how do we do it this is a very interesting thing.

00:15:16: put people, let's just say an activity.

00:15:19: So it could be a small game.

00:15:21: we often talk about double because that spot in the US is sort of our gateway game drug way and you play... It so easy to teach.

00:15:30: but whatever it is if you give people an activity they get immersed into their activities takes away some anxiety around standing with intelligent apes.

00:15:47: you don't know.

00:15:48: So we've observed that people are very comfortable, were very comfortable jumping on a plane with a bunch of strangers right and flying.

00:15:55: I mean i fly down to Australia New Zealand so you know twelve forty hours at a time but you're not interacting with them.

00:16:01: it's a non-social aspect.

00:16:06: what makes an important here is going.

00:16:10: But people, I think in the past what has been thought of as social is old.

00:16:14: People have to talk and people have to interact And they have to.

00:16:16: you know You play some sort of networking game and i have nothing against networking games particularly at certain points.

00:16:24: but we've got We've Got The Luxury Of Time.

00:16:27: so we want people To settle In Find Each Other Slowly And Gently And Then Explore and I Think That Is that Sort Of Giving Somebody An Activity Around Something That Is Not forced And then that will happen at the play podium right of the outset and then you can start to build on there.

00:16:47: I think That's The We put At the beginning of our workshop sessions.

00:16:52: we call it a soft start, but when they start with small games and we're fifteen twenty minutes and A lot of colleagues would be like oh It's a lot time especially if you've only got two hours.

00:17:03: But the difference in the room that you receive after people have had a focused activity that isn't forcing them to be not who they are or anything like.

00:17:13: The difference in the room is palpable and I think that's something we've experienced firsthand with play, so where know it unlocks this social aspect.

00:17:26: then you go from there.

00:17:30: Here's the uncomfortable truth for me right?

00:17:33: There are a lot of things that I see and observe, and are drawn into.

00:17:37: And it's not about conferences could be any training session It doesn't matter if online or on site right?

00:17:43: And its labeled as play but then triggers exactly that social anxiety.

00:17:49: Right?

00:17:49: so okay now we're gonna go around the circle!

00:17:52: Everyone is like oh my god what am i going to say?

00:17:55: You losing ninety eight percent.

00:17:56: you know what others have been contributing because you're really just focused on, okay what am I gonna say?

00:18:03: What do want to say.

00:18:03: Okay now it's my turn.

00:18:05: two more thirty-more seconds.

00:18:07: oh my god the person in front of me is skipping!

00:18:10: Now its directly on this spot right.

00:18:12: so...what for you....is the difference?

00:18:15: and again i understand four days and settling in as an invitation but..What For You Is Really The Difference?

00:18:22: And What Would You Tell Someone Who Observe That?

00:18:27: It's like, whoa.

00:18:28: But I used that game and still it didn't click!

00:18:32: Still

00:18:32: there was this awkward feeling inside the room Like what did i do wrong?

00:18:38: Right so where are your... Where is their advice

00:18:44: for anyone who's... There're a couple of things there.

00:18:48: Observe a bunch five year olds Who haven't met each other at first time And and see how that it's not about their name.

00:18:57: It's all about what school?

00:18:59: It's not a bow, you know.

00:19:00: Oh my parents are this.

00:19:03: They go when they start playing and then they start to introduce themselves.

00:19:06: I think that's the key To some of us The introduction of myself.

00:19:16: That is something we really have gone back.

00:19:21: where does play happening most organically?

00:19:24: and it is in our children, right?

00:19:27: And so I think that's something to unpack.

00:19:30: And think about the... Martin will pick up on a second go further.

00:19:34: but part of this game work or not?

00:19:40: we are very comfortable with The idea that Or confidence people would work out for themselves And that takes a bit of courage from the front-of-the-room or wherever.

00:19:53: you're curating this form.

00:19:56: It's about stepping back and letting people have, had that messy experience work it out for themselves.

00:20:03: sometimes what we observe too often in facilitation education is A desire to over explain together really work at and You just interrupting social flow you're interrupting the five-year old who's just gone up to this other kid and said, oh should we go and grab that tree?

00:20:28: That's what...that's the conditions you try to create.

00:20:30: So if somebody has asked themselves all went wrong.

00:20:35: I don't think there is a right or wrong.

00:20:38: There was like a practice of how do we create space for these intelligent apes To be together with them for a bit?

00:20:47: Work it out And then build into, you know there's often a status requirement particularly in academia.

00:20:57: Who is the room?

00:20:58: Have I got the Dean of the Room?

00:21:00: So sometimes we do have to say right... We've done a bit of play and that would call it the sort of status anxiety thats' in the room.

00:21:08: so theres about that but that comes after!

00:21:10: That doesn't come before because what you said its like.

00:21:13: he just gets on way off.

00:21:15: connection.

00:21:18: Yeah, I think

00:21:19: that example you gave about Round the Circle.

00:21:22: There are a couple of things to unpack there.

00:21:26: in contrast over explaining we were quite as society really focused on certainty.

00:21:31: when does launch exactly start?

00:21:33: Where do have to be etc.

00:21:35: how long is going this lecture or activity and purposely intentionally create level of ambiguity or uncertainty, where you don't know that your are next.

00:21:52: Even worse!

00:21:55: Quite often we have a little bit... We do like the shared uncomfortableness but were using it as a dial to make sure doesn't go over.

00:22:03: and by ambiguity there's more surprise on this journey I was talking about.

00:22:08: And two other things here is Noticing that if you do a circle, not everyone is comfortable with it or no one and intentional.

00:22:18: So we want to feel a little bit anxious thinking about what I'm gonna say.

00:22:23: then we'll do something like this but there has been the intention of let's get know each other because otherwise during game for... We have an activity where you pair up until your name.

00:22:37: that is such a simple activity, but it's hard to let people stop talking about the story of their name.

00:22:44: Well they never thought there was any history in our names.

00:22:46: so this playing around with levers and dials around how comfortable we are because we don't shy away from the uncomfortableness what has been an intention for us?

00:23:01: Yes, and I think i would really want to plus that right.

00:23:04: And say what you're describing is your combining these parameters or elements of intention a focus of activity anxiety or feelings and in that sense, right?

00:23:18: And once you thought this through again we're still in the room at that moment.

00:23:22: Right!

00:23:23: We are there to support it as a reframe or re-explain if needed.

00:23:28: but then when your'e here see how it unfolds rather than of course exaggerating taking seven bullet points from the internet and running it with your team tomorrow morning.

00:23:43: And then saying, oh my god that didn't work right?

00:23:45: So there's many more things we do than also...and thats really you know..my personal interest for the podcast.

00:23:53: who is the one inviting to play?

00:23:56: how do we support or challenge re-adjust?

00:24:00: I maybe call it now like the constant invitation, right?

00:24:07: To interact when we're spending time together.

00:24:11: Yeah yeah very much.

00:24:16: The thing that pops up for me there is We sort of have a bit of a warm fuzzy feeling come over us when our Participants sort of disrupt something That we thought was going to go some one way and then they know no That is that's really sort of for us as where play turns up.

00:24:38: Is we've got, We've got people in the room who have like no I'm gonna do it this way and i'm going to go Do This And this is Gonna happen?

00:24:43: Then we're Like Wow Okay Now We've.

00:24:45: now We've Created a Monster But That Is The Monster We're Trying To Create And This Is This Will Be Experience Of Last Year.

00:24:52: With Play Posing Up In Colorado We Were All Together.

00:24:57: An Old Girl Guides Camp Up In The Colorado Mountains the first day.

00:25:02: one arrives and it's all quite sort of settled, I would almost call it polite.

00:25:06: And then you know... It doesn't take much but by second date people are starting to rebel and start pushing.

00:25:12: they change things that is from that discomfort to comfort.

00:25:18: That is so useful.

00:25:20: Oh, absolutely.

00:25:22: I mean again this is we're talking about the conference gathering set up and were going to talk in a second because i think that conversation was triggered by us talking before recording started.

00:25:33: where's program?

00:25:37: Of course it different than if im more corporate learning right.

00:25:40: of course its different when you have more, I would say.

00:25:44: if the roads and rules and unspoken rules.

00:25:48: And the status and the anxiety or psychological safety etc.

00:25:52: is already you know predefined by what The team or the organization has been going through okay of course for the gathering i'm voluntarily there happy to contribute.

00:26:05: so Of course we're in a different stance and mood?

00:26:08: Yeah real difference between.

00:26:10: So when we do work with a set group, I would actually say that if you prefer a diverse group.

00:26:19: We find having a room which doesn't know each other is our sweet spot because the rooms that knows each others needs quite significant leadership probably outside of our remit to step into this space.

00:26:37: But that's an interesting difference for us, but we've worked across.

00:26:41: We definitely see if you have a heterogeneous group the differences in their ability to activate social and also the serendipity.

00:26:54: A heterogeneous groups like Plaposium has just huge potential for serendippity.

00:27:00: so

00:27:01: it is part of excitement here.

00:27:04: Yeah, absolutely.

00:27:05: No I mean maybe you know we can have that conversation once i'm in Exeter or maybe afterwards...I We're

00:27:15: doing Amazon orders at the moment, Julian.

00:27:17: Oh my God!

00:27:22: And if anyone knows anything about universities it's through the corporate university purchasing system.

00:27:27: so you know oh my god its in triplicate.

00:27:32: But back to play posey.

00:27:33: okay because look where is the program then?

00:27:35: Okay Because I understand right we were there.

00:27:38: The slow warm-up, right?

00:27:40: Or you phrase it the soft start and we have time for that.

00:27:43: I will ask later what you responded to that colleague who said, fifteen minutes in a two hour session!

00:27:50: But um... What happens then?

00:27:52: Right?!

00:27:53: What else is there for us to explore and be invited too?

00:27:59: Yeah i think so.

00:28:02: let's just go about why It's

00:28:08: not,

00:28:09: the schedule wasn't like fully published minute by minute.

00:28:14: I think it is about.

00:28:16: we know this as something that we take from learning through discovery or inquiry.

00:28:22: in education there's intended learning outcomes and learning outcomes.

00:28:26: The objectives...the learning objectives are very focused on but because they're output And the world is focused on outcomes and outputs.

00:28:39: We often put those up front, we say this what are going to do?

00:28:41: This where were gonna go?

00:28:43: The human brain has a complex organ.

00:28:46: therefore it doesn't head in straight linear line or anything.

00:28:49: so you're putting something like that.

00:28:51: I think works for certain subjects.

00:28:53: So i'm not saying your objectives upfront aren't useful but some subject.

00:29:00: But probably for most subjects, what you actually want to learn is to discover the learning as they go and build the neural networks.

00:29:11: So putting your ILOs up it's often like putting a ceiling up.

00:29:16: or this is all that you're going to achieve.

00:29:17: Now in my subject innovation entrepreneurship... Whoa!

00:29:21: You don't want limits?

00:29:23: You wanna be able to do so far as you can And not have a box which says This Is What Im Going To Learn in something that's more subjective and open, the idea of giving people this information is the journey.

00:29:38: The assumptions just start to fall into the ceiling.

00:29:41: probably some concrete actually sets right before you've even gone through it.

00:29:46: so one other thing we're doing here saying oh!

00:29:50: We haven't set the concrete hasn't been poured.

00:29:53: a certain amount will be poured as we go through the experience and it'll be individual to each person, so I think that's the premise of this openness.

00:30:06: To give our listeners a little bit of a clue... We have five minute by five-minute tech talk schedule?

00:30:11: I just wanted say there is a program!

00:30:14: Okay

00:30:14: here's a program.

00:30:15: cool now i'm relieved.

00:30:18: i'm happy

00:30:19: with what they're playing back to their intention setting.

00:30:21: The program will also unfold.

00:30:29: Some will be in the moment, but for example we have a city takeover on Wednesday which is quite a mad programme itself and that will be released not only on Wednesday but earlier.

00:30:43: so you can pick and choose.

00:30:45: So there IS a programme with intention when it's unfolded has too much anxiety around it and ask, I need to be somewhere or i needs something my medication with lunch etc.

00:31:00: We will give you that

00:31:01: information.".

00:31:10: And we're not cruel!

00:31:10: Here's a little series right?

00:31:12: So I had Matthias Posten on from Counterplay for the series play conference that was just released with Philip.

00:31:27: And sometimes it's really hard to explain, but still you know... For some listeners I think its very interesting to get a flavor of okay who is behind?

00:31:36: What does this about?

00:31:38: so they can decide right and join or not.

00:31:42: there's so many things that were just triggered in my head right now, I totally get the idea of that ceiling.

00:31:50: It was reminded when i was teaching this entrepreneurship class and then it was like okay goal is you know a business model canvas?

00:31:58: Then do explain!

00:31:59: And then that's the ceiling

00:32:00: Right?!

00:32:01: And I deliberately...I think I stole that activity from from a conductor.

00:32:06: I had students write me a letter after every session right, so what they learned and what it was like to be in that.

00:32:14: And I was part of how great as a look you just have

00:32:16: write-in.".

00:32:18: It was interesting.

00:32:19: sometimes yeah... They wrote two pages on the game we played or things i said in a side sentence Right?

00:32:27: Or things went onto research.

00:32:30: Very interesting.

00:32:32: The ceiling, outcome, intent.

00:32:34: Yes!

00:32:35: Wow Will I ask next?

00:32:41: Well, we can reveal a little bit of what's

00:32:44: up.

00:32:44: Yeah let's do a little review because i don't think it's not totally hidden.

00:32:49: the keynotes are on the website.

00:32:52: there is few people coming and also just carry out this with us you know, a little bit of the chocolate but it's surprise.

00:33:05: You know what?

00:33:06: Something that people don't know about and we work really hard at sort-of like all this thing is going to bubble up.

00:33:11: It's gonna happen And so we're not going to mention those things.

00:33:14: But yeah We've got Lisa Forbes coming over from Professors Of Play David Thomas And Lisa as our first keynote experience on The Monday Evening And Lisa's work at the moment is really fascinating.

00:33:30: She's in the middle of just, well she was near the end of writing a book on play from her perspective and we're very interested to see what this comes out because I think she is one of those intellectually curious people who are really probing it with players almost as a starter for us in terms of defining what this gathering is going to be.

00:34:00: Correct, and help me out Adam I think she's also representing the National Institute For Play right?

00:34:06: We've got Mia Sansron from The National Institute Of Play.

00:34:08: so Mia's the CEO.

00:34:10: She's Stuart Brown's granddaughter.

00:34:13: she's taken over as CEO.

00:34:14: she's all there.

00:34:17: they're working together.

00:34:18: They collaborate their in Denver Colorado Mayor's on the Tuesday.

00:34:27: So there is a lot of, and Martin has already mentioned that Wednesday takeover our participants all could be on stage right?

00:34:35: They can all be somewhere in this stage like thats who comes.

00:34:40: so you've got to remove incredible diverse expertise around this subject area.

00:34:46: And so On The Wednesday we're celebrating it across.

00:34:52: you know it's like a tract event but its in the middle of Exeter, across Exeter and so let them add into some fold.

00:35:02: And I suppose another thing we've got which we haven't mentioned is Tuesday night which was our dinner that again as us saying right what if your have normal conference dinner my god If you're sat next to wrong person?

00:35:20: God help me.

00:35:20: You sit there for two or three hours You know, and so how do we make this something memorable?

00:35:30: How did we inject play.

00:35:32: And that is where.

00:35:33: bring in Gainful really celebrating the Gainfull side

00:35:37: Yeah.

00:35:37: So I've got Chris Sanson who's an expert about Gainfully earning.

00:35:41: he can make his modules or what's American name of courses, into a game and not necessarily just to make it the game but really using the mechanics of why games are engaging.

00:36:01: But also combining that with the premise.

00:36:04: if you look at education there is so much game already in it!

00:36:08: You've got points, levels, rewards... So he has been doing this for years.

00:36:17: wonderful course around vampires and we've combined his expertise with the professor of storytelling, Robin Mello to curate design a very engaging dinner around vegan vampires.

00:36:41: So then there will be gain.

00:36:46: I think this is the play posium, right?

00:36:49: Where?

00:36:50: how do we tease out?

00:36:51: but also How Do We Share.

00:36:54: So even though it's going to be a sort of fantastical theatrical experience at The same time that the layer Of all This works this way and this happens here.

00:37:06: And oh they've used this.

00:37:08: They're all up for grabs.

00:37:09: so All the Way Through There Is Going To Be That be that notion of, okay we're going from one thing to the next.

00:37:15: I think it was set enough!

00:37:16: That is

00:37:18: plenty!

00:37:18: Tell me how many colleagues and participants are you expecting?

00:37:28: Of course link all the websites and dates.

00:37:31: so...

00:37:33: So a hundred us in the tent

00:37:35: Okay, and plus the team right?

00:37:38: And you just shortly mentioned there's a lot of volunteers that help to do what will they be.

00:37:45: Yeah so most of the volunteer work has been pre-so Wednesdays.

00:37:52: I think this is unusual for conferences.

00:37:53: we've had a call with every single speaker every single um proposer and So that it's key for us because We're trying to challenge our participants, to bring something that fits with the theme and we work with them.

00:38:08: We combine then put in different places.

00:38:10: so our volunteers have been integral.

00:38:15: as you can imagine Wednesday is a big messy thing but they've been integral.

00:38:19: there all of lovely stuff has happened promotions setting up tickets information.

00:38:29: Si has done a, what's the platform?

00:38:31: The digital platform.

00:38:34: A Discord

00:38:34: for the community and so there is loads of information.

00:38:37: they've been pulling up lots of information on there.

00:38:39: So it's that side I have to wrap around.

00:38:41: And then most of those volunteers are participants.

00:38:44: You know There was probably good ten people who were going come in.

00:38:48: They'd never be into a play posium It's their home town.

00:38:52: That one of our rules.

00:38:55: If you're gonna get at the Play Posium You're not gonna volunteer.

00:39:00: you know to volunteer anymore, so your finishes on that

00:39:04: And I understood also the city takeover.

00:39:06: That means it will be open To anyone strolling by right?

00:39:12: Multiple events.

00:39:13: we very lucky have a really incredible library space in the center of town and were using there's tickets being free for The community to take enjoying some those event.

00:39:25: and then this just bleeds.

00:39:27: Lisa Forbes.

00:39:28: talk is also, we've made that public because we're talking about a playful society.

00:39:32: so we challenged ourselves.

00:39:33: We said okay how do... Everyone

00:39:35: in the room and let no one hear what were discussing!

00:39:41: So it's bit more permeable than Colorado wasn't permeable at all but up on the mountain.

00:39:48: Is something about the play-posing this place based reaction to what it is?

00:39:53: And thats really an exciting part of design.

00:39:56: There will be sessions that don't have a room, they're just in town.

00:39:59: Oh

00:39:59: yeah there's people who are walking around doing stuff with

00:40:02: it!

00:40:03: Wonderful wonderful.

00:40:04: wow I feel this is really a flavor again and i would say um yeah maybe we can talk afterwards again or add even more details, or the documentation.

00:40:15: Or things that just are artifacts being created.

00:40:18: but you know it's not easy to explain But still I had the urge and a need to ask all about okay how does it unfold?

00:40:28: What is in what elements of?

00:40:32: Are You specifically proud And what was important To You?

00:40:37: Now i guess I can hear and hopefully our listeners can definitely sense also, you know not just the motivation but that your living this idea of play.

00:40:50: And i really want to ask let's start going back words in my notes.

00:40:58: first of all how do you contrast?

00:41:00: This playful stance to play as a human need Or being human, I'll let you answer that.

00:41:10: To someone who then says... You mentioned it shortly oh i don't have fifteen minutes or why would we do that?

00:41:16: I mean I'm paid to lecture here.

00:41:19: um in the business world like wait a minute.

00:41:22: uh We have a strategy meeting.

00:41:24: Why would I bother to now Do something playful whatever That means Um and How did it makes two questions, right?

00:41:35: And how did it unfold for you?

00:41:37: I mean personally.

00:41:38: I mean when was that moment that you said wait a minute.

00:41:40: It's not gonna work.

00:41:43: Yeah go back

00:41:44: so I'll deal with.

00:41:45: just deal very quickly would be the sort of the pushback of The.

00:41:51: I think this is sort of efficiency productivity push-back.

00:41:55: now what in another world?

00:41:57: idea where I do circular economy, regenerative economics.

00:42:01: so that's sort of another world of mine and i think some people will often say oh it's capitalism.

00:42:08: And I think Lisa Forbes we'll be talking about some of this...I don't know if its the big economic system but there is much more around.

00:42:19: efficiency in the human push for efficiency is something to be challenged.

00:42:27: That if you know, something that's really efficient becomes brittle and we see this in monocultures and agriculture.

00:42:35: We say it in systems whenever they become ultra-efficient They also become...they've got a fragility to them And I think that's the same as human condition.

00:42:45: If you push your humans to be ultra-officiant on time and produce basically Be a robot then you often get this burnout, a productivity drop.

00:42:59: That's been evidenced.

00:43:01: so what we're very interested in is oh actually there's body of research not just around play but cognitive science around how humans flourish and thrive as social beings particularly at the time when our social world feels fragile More connected and more lonely than ever.

00:43:25: that sort of world We we go well if you just stop for a moment take a deep breath And look around What?

00:43:37: If you're doing the same thing in getting the same result, and then doing it again-and-again.

00:43:41: It's still not working You know is the definition of madness.

00:43:45: so they say to take that and don't Stop for a Moment.

00:43:48: and why?

00:43:50: what?

00:43:50: as whats happening here either with your team or The people?

00:43:54: And then hopefully, and this is where we've had some really great experiences.

00:44:00: We have groups come together and let's just experience play and feel the difference.

00:44:06: So that fifteen minutes up front in anything that we do does so many.

00:44:15: it does such a heavy lift!

00:44:17: The first heavy lift it allows to walk in comfortably And so therefore the group, you're not separate to the group.

00:44:25: You know it's not that oh I've walked into someone talking at a screen...you walk in and like Oh sorry i'm late!

00:44:31: No really because we are just playing some games.

00:44:33: So come over and join us.

00:44:35: The room forms socially before it forms around the need for work Work and economy.

00:44:44: ultimately is social construct right?

00:44:46: They are a social thing If take the social out of it If you take the human aspect out of an economy, You can still have an economy but it's maybe for robots and not us.

00:44:58: So what is a point in that?

00:45:00: What are some reasons to be at work or doing this stuff?

00:45:03: It is to collaborate And its too do that.

00:45:06: Collaboration relies on trust & belonging.

00:45:12: Because to belong means That you buy into something that Is beyond your selfish drive But it also means that the group respects and fosters your own needs.

00:45:26: So belonging is a really key part to that collaboration, then trust about being able to have that candor or ability to move something on The bonkers thing here Julian as at play builds all of this for you.

00:45:41: It just builds in And it's not a tick box exercise.

00:45:46: It's not defined.

00:45:47: all we've got to do this, this and that.

00:45:49: if you just create space for play... ...and you foster in a bunch of intelligent apes belonging and trust form in at least as early work on her framework shows us an education We have to say In our work If you want collaboration performance or innovation start with Play.

00:46:09: So

00:46:10: I think And I think the community listening to this knows, right?

00:46:16: This is not a secret.

00:46:17: People know that.

00:46:18: and then it's about being able to put into the room The resistance we've had in academia comments about it being frivolous or making education easy.

00:46:31: We're not into edutainment that learning happens in a less comfortable space because it's new and newness is uncomfortable.

00:46:48: But that frivolousness, the one thing we've found has been the anecdote to this amazing work by Stuart Browne and others around the science of play.

00:46:59: That biological science if you put them on front of folk say right here are the sciences.

00:47:05: This what plays us.

00:47:10: We're mammals and this is across the mammalian family.

00:47:14: Players play as an aspect of building social complexity.

00:47:17: I'm taking your words, sorry man.

00:47:19: I can take that answer to second question a little bit.

00:47:23: how did it become part my life for example?

00:47:26: That was the question right.

00:47:27: yes from kidneys.

00:47:31: Obviously

00:47:31: it was always

00:47:32: there, but it was just dormant.

00:47:34: Being a researcher being under rock really focused on my research.

00:47:40: I always pushed away teaching because that was distracting and very classical research environment.

00:47:46: But also both of my parents were high school teachers.

00:47:49: so thats the place where i didn't want to teach for a long while.

00:47:55: And then I also consider teaching as transactional and also that sentinel teaching, here's the information within the kidney teaching world.

00:48:04: it was very typical to have seventy very condensed slides in sixty minutes and walk away at your responsibility now.

00:48:12: but thats not how teaching works.

00:48:16: I needed to learn that there is something more than this human-to-human interaction around how learners can learn from you as a teacher.

00:48:30: And it changed my perspective by realizing that little bit, by reading the book from Stuart Browne From What My Wife Does With Life Coaching

00:48:40: Etc.,

00:48:42: and having children and some therapy looking at myself that I wanted to bring more of my whole self, and then i used my academic training to look at the biological science with play.

00:48:56: But in an experimental applied way.

00:48:58: so...I looked into evidence And then I use my classrooms as a new laboratory if you like.

00:49:06: Sorry students!

00:49:11: That really started the snowball and you meet people, community.

00:49:16: Adam & I start to work together.

00:49:20: a huge influence that hasn't been mentioned here is Stanford D-School design thinking approach which complimented what we were doing at this time sort of full circle to the tick books, that now how I use play in my education.

00:49:45: Sometimes i have something up my sleeve like a game but if they played and already happens because then it's the attention again right?

00:49:53: I wanted to have some kind of feeling that they are trust each other enough start talking about this subject.

00:49:59: But sometimes now in the classroom there is already there And then I don't do my games because it's exactly what is already happening, so its really being intentional and watching actually trying to create rather than have a tick box.

00:50:14: It has to be playful!

00:50:15: And I had to learn that because my head was quite often in my head...it HAS TO BE PLAYFUL!

00:50:21: But if it wasn't already happening i'm folding.

00:50:24: So yeah thats little bit behind the curtain about how that arose from me.

00:50:34: for me, also very important when you said I wanted to have that feeling.

00:50:38: That it's unfolding right?

00:50:40: So i do believe that when we invite to play um there are so many things happening simultaneously... You call it like messy!

00:50:48: It's unfolding and-and that-that is so much

00:50:51: data!!

00:50:52: Um..I totally believe some facilitators will ask about your ultimate facilitative in a second but sometimes you can get overwhelmed with what is happening

00:51:02: or

00:51:03: I don't know how he mentioned, right?

00:51:04: It's like okay wait a minute.

00:51:05: there are a little rebellion here and this something happening there.

00:51:07: And it didn't plan for that!

00:51:08: Oh my god.

00:51:09: i think in twenty minutes food is coming.

00:51:11: so there is a lot to I would say juggle with at least cut through the fog and noise then deliberately make decisions based on...

00:51:21: I'll pick up on that point Julie.. This is a day school practice that every course they run has two instructors, a dual facilitation.

00:51:34: And it's sort of by accident that Martin and I started doing what we're doing and we connected but we model the idea there is to at front-of-the-room.

00:51:46: We've implemented that across innovation entrepreneurship in business school.

00:51:49: We have two at the front of the room slightly larger rooms more social.

00:51:57: This is something that it's worth noting, if you're going to model social behavior connection and play.

00:52:05: Having a play buddy at the front of the room with you... ...is a really great way particularly when your teaching youngsters To show them how oh this will be an improv and doesn't go quite well but its messy And gives in their permission?

00:52:23: So I think thats something we what we really encourage is people to find, people to collaborate with.

00:52:31: and again you know two in the room.

00:52:33: I more time.

00:52:34: that means more money but it just...you know It builds that social thread so quickly.

00:52:41: So easy

00:52:42: Yes yes.

00:52:43: And then when i come back To What You Said In terms of bringing your whole self right into That Room That's Also Especially When We Teach important to just remind our fellow learners and players that it's more than, yeah.

00:53:03: your business model canvass or it's more than a strategy meeting?

00:53:07: No, no

00:53:08: business model canvas has ever resulted in the great business really and that's the best reality of this.

00:53:13: Oh my god don't get me started on that!

00:53:16: But at Great Businesses have a great business model now hang on

00:53:20: you'd have afterwards only right.

00:53:22: but Adam also what you said you know in terms of our listeners I think Still very, very important to a put it in so many different words.

00:53:33: Why?

00:53:33: It's important.

00:53:34: and then your journey to play.

00:53:36: And why

00:53:37: this is you know more than A method that you're using right.

00:53:44: and secondly Also reminding everyone, I think Matthias mentioned that in the counterplay episode.

00:53:52: We're not alone right?

00:53:55: It's not like oh you found Stuart's book.

00:53:58: and now your motive... No there are many!

00:54:01: And so many different ways.

00:54:03: or the landscape of play is so broad it's so diverse.

00:54:10: There something for every one at end of day.

00:54:16: Yeah, there's research and we are all at one point.

00:54:21: you mentioned the children The learning.

00:54:24: I do love to think about adult learning obviously also in terms of You know experimenting.

00:54:32: And then you mention a few sources and this iterative work being safe or brave in a room without real consequences.

00:54:43: and you mentioned pro-social, so much we can just unlock or tap into when we offer some playful moments.

00:54:54: Wow!

00:54:58: I'm looking at the time...I feel sad now that our time is almost over.

00:55:07: Look, I will link everything that you mentioned.

00:55:09: OK?

00:55:09: From Lisa Forbes' site and book in Cimbran and D-School... And of course by Hosegum.

00:55:17: so to do that would be covered on the show notes.

00:55:20: Okay i'll just start here.

00:55:21: then we see what happened.

00:55:23: What is your ultimate facilitation tip To someone who says

00:55:26: Ah!

00:55:27: That sounded

00:55:29: Yeah, that sounded like something I want to embark on.

00:55:34: What is your ultimate facilitation tip for someone who's inviting others... ...to play?

00:55:40: Well it sort of tempts.

00:55:42: you say this activity or this card deck That's one side and otherwise go be yourself somewhere in the middle being trained as a research, it is the experimentation.

00:56:03: The experimental stands.

00:56:08: so that includes failing right because this ninety percent of research actually the whole research theory about disproving things rather than proving things.

00:56:22: I won't go there but experiment on mindsets and then start small small as where it is just a little bit uncomfortable.

00:56:31: I can give an example of and actual thing that colleagues have done after they've been through in Adelaide studio, Just playing music at the beginning of your lecture or you're room.

00:56:44: so we got some music on.

00:56:47: We had multiple colleagues say i should play some music And the room was different.

00:56:50: like oh wasn't that interesting?

00:56:54: So It could be something very small And it can just lead to that shift in the room and warmth we're talking about.

00:57:02: That could be a really good part.

00:57:06: It does bring me one of my favourite metaphors on how to apply play, DJing your experience being with DJ.

00:57:16: so create conditions where you get the response...

00:57:21: You are not teaching the dance moves the floor and in the atmosphere, but it doesn't move to unfold.

00:57:27: And that's a different approach to be intention of the room.

00:57:34: I'll jump in and say that i think for a lot of folk It's finding a way To let go over the room?

00:57:44: And then bring the room back.

00:57:46: because what we've observed is That particularly in higher education There's a fear that once you let go of the room and You've got two hundred eighteen year olds talking, and they love to talk by the way.

00:58:00: This is this is a lovely thing That how do you pull them back?

00:58:05: And How do you put that?

00:58:06: we're in back and you gotta find a way that's comfortable for you.

00:58:09: and For then there's multiple ways to do it.

00:58:12: Is you know?

00:58:13: We probably we probably advocate that a whistle or something loud as not looking because it's a real.

00:58:18: It's A Real Interruption To The Column.

00:58:21: But I was with this facilitator who used a really beautiful gong.

00:58:25: sound like they just tap.

00:58:26: there's Beautiful and it is irradiated across the room in that room.

00:58:28: Just back quiet Like It Was Just A Really Just Thing.

00:58:32: but That For Me Is The Once You Have once you've experimented With The Room Sort of Releasing, The Room And Bringing The Room Back?

00:58:41: That Gives You Then A Huge Amount Of Confidence Ability to Let That Social Interaction Happen.

00:58:50: And, and so I think that's something we work hard on in the Play Studio is like how do you hold a room?

00:58:57: Now We use something they used at D-School which are hands up for five year olds.

00:59:02: We love it!

00:59:02: We get lots of push back.

00:59:03: Oh why am i... Well Do You Know

00:59:05: What?!

00:59:06: It's quiet..and its really easy ..And Its A Really Beautiful Thing If You Hold It ...And This Is Something I'll Also Say Is Really Interesting.

00:59:15: Some Colleagues Put Their Hands Up And They Start Talking The Room Not Quiet.

00:59:19: This is another thing about being in the moment and going, I've got to have some sort of ability to hold this room.

00:59:30: And if start... If i don't have that room you can't move forward!

00:59:34: So we're really talking about that facilitation world Julian Really talking about activating play on the rune Play.

00:59:43: it could be very quiet and contemplative like a game of chess But that also relies on a room to be really settled and contemplative.

00:59:50: So you still need, You may have control the atmosphere of your room And therefore some sort of influence over your participants Or it can.

00:59:58: one of our favourite games is called Happy Salmon.

01:00:00: It could be mad wild noisy crazy.

01:00:04: In both those conditions we needed comfortable with letting them go and pulling back and changing their energy.

01:00:11: For me facilitation has always radiated around how you create your presence in the room and I think again, a lot of audience will know that.

01:00:24: That's just thing to pass on as is finding your way

01:00:40: Find your way of play.

01:00:42: You just strictly mentioned InnoPlay Studio, we did not talk about this at the beginning so YouTube met.

01:00:50: you're also working out I understand part-time Mark and you at the same university right?

01:00:58: So i'll link everything about you.

01:01:00: but what about innoplay studio?

01:01:02: is that something...

01:01:04: What does it say?

01:01:05: So Matt and I put our heads together do at sort of the end of twenty-twenty two and we created, I have some teaching spaces around innovation entrepreneurship.

01:01:16: And i've been to d school when i was doing design thinking and martin came into my world went oh there's a single play!

01:01:22: Oh okay cool yeah well let's do that.

01:01:23: um...and we created something very quickly.

01:01:26: .I mean ,we met it just after for us lockdown had come out and we met physically for coffee about ninety minutes later from that coffee and a diary.

01:01:39: And what that was, it's called Playful Lab.

01:01:42: What we did is every Thursday for term time... We just ran a Playful lab!

01:01:46: It was our little experiment space for experiment place for colleagues to come in an experiment.

01:01:52: It was sort of concertinated in-and out but then off the back of that Martin did most Idea came out.

01:02:02: like what's this entity?

01:02:03: It's not a it's not research center in the traditional sense.

01:02:06: It's something else and we would.

01:02:09: we do have this.

01:02:10: We do have these sort of core acorn, which is innovation and play And you put those two together to get in no play Inno plate we buried.

01:02:19: Martin was already in this world.

01:02:20: He was getting pulled by colleagues left right into come on run something playful coming away.

01:02:25: We sat back and went We're not gonna kill us that were going to be dead by the end of the year because we're just going to be turning up for like ten minutes of play and, uh...and w-we're just gonna be pulled apart.

01:02:35: So we said okay um.. We're gonna create a course For other facilitators And that's in our Play Studio.

01:02:42: That's the now five day course which run In our Maker Space within The Business School.

01:02:47: We take facilitators Educators through A process Of exploring Play from a personal From a techniques point of view right point of view.

01:02:59: And at the end that's our hope is somebody has this playful courage and ability to go back and really inject play into their lives.

01:03:10: Wonderful, wow!

01:03:12: Is there anything we have not talked about?

01:03:14: What a big question... We've

01:03:16: just spoken about your session at Playposium but

01:03:18: were'nt gonna

01:03:19: do it.

01:03:19: Oh wonderful yes come see us out on the debriefing cube.

01:03:24: I'll link everything that you mentioned.

01:03:28: and of course also in a play studio, they have to sell them the game.

01:03:33: Wow!

01:03:35: Are there any final famous last words for this episode?

01:03:41: Well what we say towards ourselves is because talking about confidence... Creative confidence is something we talk a lot about.

01:03:50: and experimentation And what I just said the starting small to smaller experiments Something that really helps when you have play body, think About the experiment how they went well from in The end.

01:04:03: it's trust-the process

01:04:17: both of you to take the time out of your busy pre and prep, play posium-time.

01:04:25: To talk our listeners in me... Thank You so much!

01:04:30: Julie it's been a pleasure.

01:04:31: thank

01:04:34: you very much!

01:04:35: It was also just grateful for reaching out.

01:04:39: I want hear some more about us.

01:04:41: that is appreciated.

01:04:44: Absolutely, it's so important.

01:04:45: I will also link all the other episodes about.

01:04:48: you know playful communities out there i do believe.

01:04:50: um we all have way more in common.

01:04:53: You Know different approaches maybe different motivations different history.

01:04:57: Um and at the end of the day um, you know what?

01:05:00: We all want to bring more play into our lives or breathe bring it back to our lives or okay we'll figure that out later.

01:05:09: and two all our listeners.

01:05:11: Well either you know book your ticket, and your flight ,and then come play with us.

01:05:18: Experienced the play posium in Exeter or have a look around on social media and the websites again There they have been other play posiums out there.

01:05:27: So, there's some you know buzzed and some documentations And some blog posts etc.

01:05:33: Available.

01:05:34: and if not, you know lookout end of June it's gonna happen and We're going to post Most like I'm not sure.

01:05:43: let's see.

01:05:44: sometimes that has the feeling If there's not too much going on in social media during the conference, it is actually a good sign because people are really focused and drawn-in.

01:05:54: But mostly!

01:05:56: And afterwards you could definitely read that up.

01:06:01: Adam over to you.

01:06:03: What do I have to say?

01:06:05: No... You were nodding.

01:06:06: Yeah.. You're

01:06:07: making a breath.

01:06:08: Sorry,

01:06:09: I was immersed into what you said.

01:06:11: Social Media, they just realized we didn't have.

01:06:15: We didn't have a signal very easily.

01:06:16: And so social media wasn't even the thing, we didn't even have our phones there.

01:06:19: So I was just thinking oh what's going to be the difference this time?

01:06:22: Maybe people won't have their phones out.

01:06:25: It sort of never

01:06:25: know right?

01:06:26: but that is a social aspect Right.

01:06:28: and then it's called Social Media.

01:06:30: i think That for a reason.

01:06:31: But well actually I'm not so social because

01:06:33: Julian there's A lovely journalist in The New York Times and he calls it Algorithmic Media.

01:06:42: I happen To Think that algorithmic media Is more appropriate term right now for what it is.

01:06:47: Yes, yes and it messes with our attention and focus and energy!

01:06:50: And if you want to have that all focused on the Play Posium come see us there.

01:06:54: If not please do feel free to reach out to any one of us To talk about play ask questions give feedback About the question or session The podcast.

01:07:09: we're looking forward to that Till next time.

01:07:11: bye-bye You can Reach Us at Hello at KeyLearning.net.

01:07:18: We're looking forward to your suggestions, comments and feedback.