speaker-0: Hello and welcome to the Serious Games Podcast. All about playful methods for interactive trainings and facilitation. Let's get started. And welcome back to the Serious Games Podcast. Well, today, once again, I'm only connected to Berlin. In fact, south and north of me, north of me, Tim Riedel in Weissensee, really not far from the C-Space, a lovely event venue. But Tim is the creator. of a game that we're going to talk about in a second, the climate business challenge. I just learned south of me in Kreuzberg, Jan Stierkl, you're one of his first facilitators out there. look, I looked at your website, OK? And it says, it's a four hour workshop, five to 50 participants, more than 100 ideas for impact. And of course, I want to know. And hopefully all our listeners want to know. How do you make it work? Right. What is this game about? And what are these ideas and how do they eventually transform also into action? So first of all, welcome to the podcast.

speaker-1: Thanks Julian.

speaker-2: Thanks, Julian.

speaker-0: Wonderful. And yes, I can start with my traditional questions, I would say. What should our listeners know about you? And how do you explain the climate business challenge to someone, you know, the elevator pitch question, to someone who's never heard about

speaker-1: Jan, who should start? You as a first fan and facilitator or me as the one who brought it into the world?

speaker-2: I think we start with the father.

speaker-1: With the father. I'm not sure if I identify with that role. I developed the climate business challenge through 74 iterations with the goal of enabling people in companies and companies and sustainability managers and normal employees and leaders to develop sustainability strategies and measures that actually are embedded in the reality of the circumstances they're operating in. Most sustainability and climate strategies are more wishful thinking than actually embedded in business. That's why they are then de-prioritized when business has other plans. And so the climate business challenge has two parts and one is actually understanding how our economic and financial system works with the constraints in it. That is, we have to make money and then the second part developing these solutions. that's in a playful way and no slides, no long lectures, but actually them moving cards around and having the insights themselves and then developing solutions that are then not easy, but actually embedded in reality so that they do make business sense. So that's the idea behind it. It's simply abstract, but maybe Jan, you want to add to that?

speaker-0: Absolutely, and we got another 45 minutes coming up, right? That was a very long elevator ride. And over to you, Yann.

speaker-2: Yeah, let's say why I became one of the first fans of the game. I'm also facilitating other serious games like the Climate Fresq, for example. We had that in the podcast already. So I like that it's more than awareness. Like Climate Fresq is of course also about action, but the climate business challenge, let's say it's more like one third of the workshop is about awareness and then two thirds about solutions and how we really tackle this. tricky problem to transform our economy. And this is, for me, the better dedication to what the challenge is actually that we have to really think about, what could we do? And mostly it's coming down to business models that we need to change. And this is then the really, really tricky part because you build a company and everything works and then someone comes and say, Well, can you please change that here and there? And actually there's not much left from your original company. And this is where the climate business challenge gives you a first deep dive into what could be possible with your company.

speaker-0: Mm Okay. Well, thank you. So it's like a level two, right? To the, to the fresco, right? And I'll link that episode and of course, all the websites and everything that we mentioned in the show notes that you said the 70 something iterations, when did it start? And when, when did you feel that? Wow, there should be more and there should be more about the connection or it should click. better to the business needs, the business language, the business models that are out there.

speaker-1: I used to work in human resources and I had my own company and I sold that in 2017 and left it in 2020 and then wanted to redirect my career and in 2019 my children went on the streets demonstrating with Right for Future and that was my awakening moment. I had considered myself to be climate and environmentally conscious before but actually then I realized I wasn't. And then I started my company called Planet Groups with the goal of empowering employees and facilitating internal transformation processes. And then I did the Climate Fresc, which I found very powerful, but also emotionally very tough. And that's when I recognized, or for me, I decided I need also something like that. but that is more business oriented and more focusing on leading the people into the solutions. And I also done a lot of reading and understood that companies are spending millions to reduce their emissions and to decarbonize, but they're sending billions to increase their emissions and to carbonize because they're still very much on the material growth path as we all are. So how can we actually develop sustainability pathways? that are not contradictory in itself. And so that's how I got to starting the climate business challenge. And the first versions were still very academic, lots of reading, quite abstract, and then it got more more tangible along the way. So it started in 2021, early 2021.

speaker-0: Wonderful. So when would a client call you? mean, that that? Yeah. mean, what are the options and what have you seen out there?

speaker-1: They call us for strategy development. They can call us. Most of the time they call us for climate awareness and just doing something and enabling or informing, maybe inspiring employees and leadership that it's a business topic. They can call us for ideation. They do develop more than 200 ideas and practical solutions projects. And of course for bringing together groups, identifying individuals who want to take action. So awareness, strategy, ideation and community. These are the four reasons why the climate business challenge can be

speaker-2: That's

speaker-0: Great. So let's just imagine that phone call happened. Maybe you have a concrete example that you can share. how does it all start? So what do you need? What do you pack? I understand that once I link this website, there are some online sessions. But I also see pictures that you, of course, do this on site. So maybe for the sake of this podcast, we can think about, or I invite you to think about, an on-site session. So what do need? Yeah, can you just walk us through how you set up the room and how you make sure that those participants feel welcome?

speaker-1: Let's talk Jan, because you had recently had that phone call. The financial part of a large international automotive OEM and the ESG, their sustainability team called Jan actually. So what did they say Jan? What did they mean?

speaker-0: Okay.

speaker-2: Well, they said, of course, they have everything we need for the workshop. I said to we need one room. And we have normally groups that are quite small. So three to four people, maximum five people, that are gathering around one big table, let's say. And the others are also quite close. So in one room, let's say. And then we have two parts of the workshop. For the first part, we just need pre-printed cards, which text on it basically and this is the awareness part and then in the second part we basically need post-its, pencils, also some space to walk around maybe to get some ideas flowing and move around also. That is also one part you're not sticking to one table all the time so we also move around and see what the others are doing so we get inspired by the others so that's quite good that there's a there's not some, yeah, we're not sticky to one place we're moving around. So the ideas can also flow.

speaker-0: Okay, got you, got you. So three to five per table, which means it would scale. I really read like 50 on your website. So that will be 10 tables that you won, 10 plus tables that one facilitator would then...

speaker-2: It is actually quite easy to do it as one facilitator. Of course, like here and there might be a question, but this is in general, let's say, easy to answer. it is possible with one facilitator.

speaker-0: Okay, but if talking about questions and answers, how much do I need to know? mean, can I just walk in knowing nothing? And then you said, Tim, yeah, it was very academic. I mean, are you gonna know? ESG report, and I have to read it first.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think we should, we should maybe... secret a bit and share with the listeners what's on the cards and and and actually in the first part it's about understanding the system and we have three columns imagine we have about We have all together 17 cards and three columns. The first is how we got here That's the current system and that starts with how money is created how we tax how we measure economic success and how we what we nature and on the left side you have information cards, on the right side you have cards, what does that mean for Andrea's company? Andrea is a fictitious company that manufactures telecommunication equipment and the task is to place the correct Andrea card with the matching knowledge card. And the three columns, how we got here, where we are, that's the current system with climate risks and overproduction, overconsumption. The third part is the drivers of the transformation. And with those three columns after doing that and placing the cards with the right corresponding card and we know that like for example nature like the ecosystem services amount to more than twice global GDP But nobody is giving nature any money for that. So that's quite easy to understand. That's also not political That's a you know, we see that we don't pay a tree for providing ecosystem services. We don't pay the bees And by putting all this information together people actually realize that yeah, there's nobody who has designed a system that's destroying the planet But we've designed a system to create material growth By creating financial growth first and now we are all kind of forced to produce produce produce more And with the amount of money that we have put into the system in the last 25 years, that's more than twice

speaker-1: than GDP growth and all that money has to be translated into more products and more services. So we are bound to double our economy again in the next 25 years, which is not going to happen because both of the material on the waste side, the planet cannot provide or absorb that. So there is no escape route to changing. It's going to happen by design or by disaster or both, a combination. And then there's the question of, okay, what role do I want to take with my And that's a realization that comes by itself without actually somebody having to tell them.

speaker-0: Got you, got you. okay, I have so many questions. Number one, how long does this awareness part...

speaker-1: The actual placing the cards, including designing a claim for the role of Andreas Company in the transformation, takes 20 minutes. Really fast. And including the explanation and the sharing and exchange is about an hour for the first

speaker-0: Okay

speaker-0: Okay, and then Andrea's company. So look, I had early access to a whiteboard that both of them shared with me. the cards, so Andrea's company, this Fisher's company, that will always be your go-to example, right? To share the three columns or then the 17 cards with how did we get here? I mean, what are the underlying... implicit, explicit ideas that just happened to be there as we designed our economy and living on this planet. And then where are we today? So the pressure, you know, problems, what literally it means for Andrea's company in that sake, and then the drivers of transformation, what is slowly changing in the heads in the economy and the

speaker-1: Technology regulation customer demands And so players play more, you know, getting credits more based also on environmental risk, etc.

speaker-0: Gotcha. I'll share a few of those cards here in the podcast. If you happen to have a podcast player that can show pictures, look at it now. Okay, so we got one hour and still, I mean, when I went through the board and the cards, it feels like, my God, how are we going to get out of this mess? mean, it's like, things are changing, obviously, awareness is changing. On the other hand, it seems so as you described it, seems like a vicious circle. It seems like, yeah, mean, gross is the thing, right? And then more products and a new season and a new pair of shoes is like really the thing, right? And what's next?

speaker-1: That's really a good question. And that's the kind of overwhelmed feeling that many of us have once they open their eyes to what's happening. Jan, you want to go first?

speaker-2: Yeah, I think it's important that we have this realization part that we really see the bottom line. Okay, we cannot, we cannot go further or we should not go further. Otherwise it's just going mad. And of course it's already not good. And if we have the people at that point, there, I have the feeling that they're more open to new ways of thinking. And this is especially, or this is necessary for the next step for the part two. where we then get into the creative phase. Of course, there's a little break in between and so on, everybody can take a deep breath in. But besides that, it's super necessary that everybody is on the same page and we reached it after one hour already. so then we get into the first question, like we introduced to the new board, we have the four columns, business model, handprint, negative and positive footprint. These are the four columns that we create ideas with. then the question is, okay, what is my, let's say my scope, my target? Is it my business? Is it my company or is it my department? Is it maybe an invented company that is not existing or already exist? I could also choose, for example, Coca-Cola. And this is of course a bit tricky, but yeah, why not? Let's start.

speaker-1: We've done it. We designed sustainability strategies for Coca-Cola with a group of consultants.

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-0: But would that be something that your sponsor requests or asks you to pre-design? Like those moments where now the real cases, the real business scenarios come into play. Would that be something that, let's say, a client would say, great, now we want to look at logistics. Now we want to look at the part of our business overseas where we're not really sure what to do with XYZ. And here we want to look at a specific product maybe. Is that also something that happens?

speaker-1: Yeah, you can like customize the second part. Obviously, if you do it only, for example, the financial department, what can the financial department do? The part of business development is less prominent because the financial department does not develop products and services. that's of missing then. But in terms of the solutions, of course, every department has a different lever. So the HR department can change the competency framework, for example. Actually what Jan mentioned, and you also asked Julian, you don't have to have a lot of knowledge about sustainability and climate, and you don't have to have any knowledge. And after the first part, and that's also the testimonial of one of the clients on our image film, that it brings people on the same page regardless of how much knowledge they had beforehand. The sustainability people, leadership and normal employees can do it together. And then the second part, they have the same footage. And the idea is that we have to start with business models and not with reducing our footprint. And not most sustainability strategies start and many of them end in reducing the negative footprint, which is important. But if you don't change, start with a business that's never embedded in business. So we have to define a pathway how to change our business models so that they are sustainable or even regenerative by design in the first place. This is really tough, but there's no way around it because if we don't have a sustainable business model, we don't have a sustainable business model. Right. So if you don't have it ecologically, we also don't have it economically, not in the long run. And then it's the handprint. So how we change the system. And that is actually quite evident because people, companies, when they bring a product or service into the market, they want it to be competitive. So they have to look at the competitive environment and shape the competitive environment. So they have to make sure that regulation and communication makes it kind of inevitable that their product has the early mover advantage. And that's not new to companies to shape customer demands and to shape regulation, right? And they just don't usually do it in the direction that we need. So business models and which new business models are we going to develop?

speaker-1: which current business models can we transform and which business models do we have to phase out in what time span and how it is when it is economically viable and then with a handprint make sure that everybody else has to follow our lead and then it's our reduction of the negative footprint and increase of a positive footprint but that's the third part not the first.

speaker-0: Okay, I mean that's a lot. How do you facilitate that? So it's really, now you said there are four areas that everyone will do a drill down, a deep dive into. How does that work? I mean, now with those table groups of three to five people. Can you walk us really through, are there another set of cards or instructions? And then of course, stickies and sharpies.

speaker-2: No, we do it actually by doing three rounds. So we do little baby steps. So the first round is just discovering all these four columns. So we think about, let's do one different business model. Let's do one opportunity for a handprint solution and so on. And then the second round, we go a bit wild. Let's say, okay, let's fill the columns as much as possible. So all the groups just put post it, it, post it, post it. And then in the third, around, we call it the Einstein factor. Earlier it was called the Elon Musk factor, but now it's the Einstein idea, actually. so there we change the table, we go to another group's table, read through all the ideas and try to make new connections and really think out of the box. There's no limit, there's no budget, there's infinite planet, whatever. So you just go wild and these ideas actually. But they are the spark to maybe something new that really helps the companies then to grow into a regenerative economy.

speaker-0: OK, so a little bit of a mixer, different rounds, baby steps, the scar folding is there. And I mean, a wild idea would still maybe be out of my control or out of my influence. How do you deal with that? Or can you share a little bit what's happening then on the tables? Are they coming up with this disruptive things like, we need it. completely change the business model or is it more, yeah, looking at our department, we could do X, Y, Z, right? So what do you experience and how wild are the ideas really?

speaker-1: They are often very wild and that's one of the positive experiences of the climate business challenge that the people involved feel empowered because they do have many ideas regardless of what their role is. usually have, sometimes they discover things they already do. So, we're already doing this. This is really interesting. So they learn about their own company, but they're really often inspired by the ideas that they have in a very short time span. And then of course, depends who you have. We have management, like top management. When it's strategy development, you go into action. If you have normal employees, you try to feed the ideas through the sustainability department into real project management. But that's of course a longer path. And then it's also more the awareness part. And then maybe you break it down and say, next week we make this, we do this for your logistics department, or we do this for your HR department. But these ideas then to... Actually, that's of course the goal that these ideas are somehow channeled into real project and strategy development departments, but you don't always have them in the classroom. then you have to develop a way with the champion that orders actually the climate business challenge. You ask them, what is your idea?

speaker-0: Okay. And I mean, as they say, ideas are cheap. How do you make it stick? I mean, how do you make sure that now this, again, I understand in the awareness phase, I might feel like, my God, how do we get out of this mess? Now I see, you know, 50 ideas and I was, you know, engaged in a very inspiring. creative dynamic with my colleagues and it feels like, yeah, great. And now we have this list of 50 things or maybe 30 at the end. How do you make sure that it's not just yet another workshop with yet another set of stickies and pictures and an email three weeks later where everyone says, oh yeah, by the way, we had to do X, Y, in between. So no one really worked on what we've designed or thought about.

speaker-2: Maybe I can start on that. So that's really the beneficial part or again in comparison to the climate fresco, you can do it multiple times and that's the real benefit from it. next time you can do it in a much more specific topic, for example, or we just also have other possibilities. How we should look at the ideas, like what fits really to our company or what is... out of our scope in some kind of way. there's a lot more possibilities. And this is actually still in development since there's so many possibilities that we can do after. Tim, do you want to jump on that?

speaker-1: Thanks, and thanks for what you said. Obviously, starting a real and fundamental transformation in a company is not an easy thing. So expecting that from doing the Climate Business Challenge once, that transformation actually gains substantial traction is a big ask. So it really depends on who you have in the classroom and who you have. have who ordered the climate business challenge, like who is your customer. It's usually the sustainability department, but sometimes it's normal employees, sometimes it's your resources, and sometimes it's top management. So with one financial player of the large automotive OEM, we were requested to do it for their executive board. And with them, obviously, they'd send the question, OK, what do we do? to translate this into real service and product ideas. But even then, of course, have constraints because they are just the bank for the OEM. So they cannot change the cars that are manufactured themselves. They have to do with the model company. But even if it's just employees and middle management getting the picture, it's already a big win. Even if maybe of the fundamental transformative ideas, only the the less transformative ideas are actually implemented, but people have a different mindset after it, it's still a big win. So we don't see it as a failure if after the climate business challenge, the company is still sticking to the main course because top management was not in the climate business challenge. Yeah, okay. But that's the reality of all sustainability consultants that you have big ideas of what the company could do, but you cannot force them to do it. But the climate business challenge definitely offers many like big leverage and many entry points and asks the right questions for actually getting companies to engage in that direction and really start a fundamental change process and not just an emission reduction goal.

speaker-0: Okay, well, let's talk a little bit about the content. What are like common like aha moments that you see emerging? It doesn't have to be industry specific, but you know, what are things that participants often realize in that second phase? Okay, so yes, we have a lot of ideas, some things we're already doing, but can you share a few concrete examples of, you know, so that we can really feel this, yeah, empowerment or this moment of Yeah, we can do some.

speaker-2: Well, I would say in the beginning, there's already for a lot of people, even in financial services, where's the money coming from? How is money created actually? For a lot of people, this is like, well, it comes from somewhere. And in the climate business challenge, you really get the point. Like, wow, it's just someone typing in the computer and then it's there, it pops up and wow. And that's really crazy.

speaker-0: And that's on the awareness phase. And walk us through a few more aha moments, your most memorable ones, where you think, I didn't even realize that the game that I've developed could spark such an idea.

speaker-1: Well, take a shoe manufacturer, take a sports fashion brand, Adidas or Nike or what have you, and actually recognizing that just putting many shoes into the market, selling them once, leaving the customer to drop it in the waste bin and hopefully buying a new one as soon as possible. It is a very one-way approach. And actually, So like for example, a product as a service, that's a great idea. And that I would really love one of my, I do a lot of sports and I would love to send my shoes back to the company that manufactures them, get a new one from the same company and have them design their shoes so that every part of the shoe can be, you know, reused and put it in the new shoe. And I wouldn't go to a store or to the internet one more time if that brand of my choice was providing me with the great shoes every one year, two years, three years, depending on how much I use it. And I'm happy even maybe to pay a bit extra that some part of that shoe money I pay for it goes into regenerative projects. then every shoe I use for that company, I know it's not only like... providing great value when I do sports, but it's also providing value for the environment, for the planet. And I am completely attached to that company because I have basically a subscription model. And that's like a very tangible, not easy, but very tangible circular business model idea that's there. And it's just a question that companies adopt it and really buy into it. and i i i still don't get my head around why they don't because it's so difficult to you know and now i buy new shoes from other brands

speaker-0: And tell me, this is, I can imagine now this is like a conversation or discussion, you know, emerging in the room, right? Even with employees from, you know, such a company. And how do you deal with that? I mean, you know, some might say, yeah, but that's a completely different, you know, way of doing business. We need to start from the ground up completely new. It's like, you know, we need to have a different design so that you can take it apart again, we need to have all those logistics that will cost a lot of money. And then we of course need to tell our customers, know what, the subscription is there, but it will most likely be a little bit more expensive, right? There's also a benefit, but okay, let's throw more money at marketing now so that we get the shoes back. Realizing that even with the most ausgeklügelt, the fund system, right? The best deposit system. You can only fish off so much of the market, glass or some other packaging that's out there. So what do do now? Is it the ideas that you then hand back or is that where you really say, look, we can raise awareness, we can brainstorm ideas, we can even order them in some way, make sure that everyone takes their package back to their apartment or discusses. gets the mandate to actually work on them, but then we really have to come back for that strategy or for the implementation or for more. That's a question that's pondering in my head. How do you really make sure it has an impact?

speaker-1: Well, it's a tough decision to make and it's a tough pathway to actually get the company to adopt such a strategy, but it has no alternative. And so it's our goal with the Climate Business Challenge to make people aware in the first part that it has no alternative and to summon all the courage that they have to actually engage in the path and then to accompany that with a lot of regulatory and communicative effort. so that competitors cannot get away with that one-way throw away system that they're used to. Because as long as everybody can still do that, obviously a circular model will be challenging to bring into the market. But it's about making companies, inspiring companies to really make an effort to be a pioneer in that direction.

speaker-0: Yeah, because if you if you list all the efforts and money and people that you're putting in the, know, upholding the current system and what it comes with, you know, that might be, you know, you might see, it's maybe just similar.

speaker-1: And it's not about doing that tomorrow. It's about starting a strategy that's going into that direction, communicating it with effort and getting everybody in the company on board to buy into it and make a serious effort. Of course, they have to still continue the current business for the moment because they don't want to go bankrupt. We are in the system. It's understandable. But it's absolutely crucial that companies become more political. in the sense that they have to make an effort to change the incentivization of the current economic system. Otherwise, if they do start with new business ideas and new business models, they're going to have a very hard time. They don't at the same time change. Like only 1%. And that's the first part, one card. Only 1 % of all our taxes is actually taxing material use and energy use. The rest is general profits, labor, general transactions. we tax indiscriminately economic activities, but only 1 % we actually tax resource use. So obviously we have very little incentives to be mindful of resource use. So if a company is mindful of resource use, then they actually have an economic disadvantage. So it must be on the agenda of companies to try to change regulation and to change the public awareness about resource use and so that when they have a circular model that you know successful with less resource use they have a economic competitive advantage and so companies have to get this in their heads that they are actually regular in terms of politics and regulation that have to be more vocal

speaker-0: Which brings you to the point, know, discussing the group and who's in the room. mean, the more diverse the group would be, even having regulators and government representatives, right? And that would even be a nice approach. Have you done such a thing, like really diverse even with, you know, people from the street?

speaker-1: Yeah, we've done it with students, for example. And if you do it with normal employees across the company, you have them from all ranks and shapes and colors. And actually all from political views and then politics really comes to the background because all these facts on how we tax, for example, are so evident. And you know, this climate business challenge is one piece of the puzzle. You know, expecting the climate business challenge to change things that millions of High-paid consultancies have not changed yet. It's not fair. But I think it's a very powerful part of changing people's perception of what they actually do and giving them new inspiration to work in different directions, whatever that leverage is.

speaker-0: Yes, know, sometimes I like to say, know, with a gameful approach and then having such a game available, you know, there must be a crack where it like comes in. So all good, all good.

speaker-1: And then you break it down into departments and then talk about, what in your purchasing department, what can you do as buyers? And then you can get directly into action and, know, sending out questionnaires to the suppliers, asking them to provide information. They can do that tomorrow.

speaker-0: Got you because that's exactly what I wanted to ask him. Sticky notes, the wall is full, the tables are full, you know, maybe another break. What's next? So how do you debrief? How do you wrap it up? How do you converge so that those actionable, you know, do it tomorrow then really happens? Okay. So let's say the ideas are somewhat mapped, somewhat ordered. They did their dot voting on them. But how do you... continue so that they can really walk away with something concrete.

speaker-2: Well, the first thing is I think they have to let it sink in. the session after four hours, like really they are done mostly, but in a positive way. So they come get home quite inspiring. And so the last bits of the session, we just give them an outlook what could be possible after. we have different models that we can work on in the next session. For example, the Icky guy, if we need to find what kind of ideas are actually fitting to our company's identity best. So there we can map into there, or we can simply do a impact effort grid to find really, okay, which of the ones are the feasibles, the ones that we have quick wins with, or the ones that actually have no impact. So just a categorization of everything. And yeah, and then also the possibility that we also mentioned before, going deeper into specific products, specific services, or departments. So just do another round of new ideas into that. maybe the one idea was not there, but just because we went on a too high level. So we need to go deeper on, for example, one specific product to really fine tune what we get.

speaker-1: It takes a follow-up workshop where you go into different directions, but basically with the project ideas you cluster and prioritize and then translate them into a project pipeline and say, these are the three things we want to do in next year and this is the governance structure for these three projects and we assign them to ABC persons. so, you know, that's how projects are managed.

speaker-0: And let's talk about some memorable moments of the game. What behavioral changes have you seen? And again, it doesn't really matter who was a small workshop or a big one, a disruptive one, your favorite industry or your least favorite industry. But can you just give us a few examples of things that you will always remember because of the climate business challenge?

speaker-1: Can I start, Jan? have a few... So we did it, for example, we often have open workshops, so we don't always do it in-house. It's most beneficial to do it in-house because then people can work on their own company. But when we do the open workshops, have consultants, people from different ranks. So you choose a company and we do it for companies like Adidas or McDonald's.

speaker-2: That's true girl, right?

speaker-1: And like discovering the value of community when you do it for McDonald's. So obviously the material is one thing that you use, obviously nutrition, introducing the planetary health diet in the McDonald's stores. That was one very inspiring ideas and pushing and marketing what they sell based on the planetary health diet and the power they have on actually shaping people's perception of nutrition in combination for their own health and the planet. mean, imagine what a company like McDonald's could change in the world if they wanted to. Right. And the second part is the vertical integration part. Again, if you are like selling food and like on retail, actually acquiring or entering deep partnerships with the producers and using their leverage to change the way that they grow food. or that they grow material, that they develop material, it's either by circularity or by regenerative materials that actually decompose. These were really inspiring moments. People realized that, well, if we really set our minds to it, what could we do? And that's great because you realize what we are technologically, we're so, as human beings, we're so genius in terms of what we can develop. My son recently told me that there is a company that can manufacture surfaces that if you scale them to the size of the whole planet, they would still not have more like uneven structures like a card deck. they're like, the kind of things we can manufacture and design is absolutely fascinating. And if we put that ingenuity to use actually for the better of our own future, we could save this planet easily. But we have to put the money to it. And currently, we don't have the money there. We have the money in extraction and destruction. And so being part of that journey where we actually not only save the planet by not having something we'd like to have, but actually in putting our minds in creativity and love to designing something beautiful and that's something that actually makes sense, these are the inspiring moments of the Climbing Business Challenge for me.

speaker-1: And they are very tangible, it just takes still courage to do it. And we all don't have the leverage to do it ourselves, but to be part of that dynamic, social dynamic that drives this change, that these are the moments that I really enjoy about the Planetary Position.

speaker-0: Wow, thank you, Tim. And Young, what about you? Memorable moments, unique things that happened while facilitating.

speaker-2: It's the like when we were born, for example, we went to these fast food fast food stores and just got our got our food and just wow was tasteful and happy. And so we had once a session about Domino's pizza and there they came up with the idea to make a community around it and actually cooking classes and stuff like this. So introducing also healthy food, planetary dairies, of course. And it was so like thinking out of the box. Yes, of course. I mean, They're just selling this food to us, but they maybe can give us something back. They maybe can gather us and be inspiring to us, but they are currently not. And that's super sad to see, but on the other side, there are so much possibilities because they are international, because they have these networks and resources. They could share more with us and do more with us together. And this community moment, let's say this is super inspiring to see it differently that these giant brands. could do so much more for the planet for us if they want to.

speaker-0: Okay, well at the moment, mean, we're talking about large corporations, but I totally understood also that with the climate business challenge, there's also this context of, you know, the everyday company in my neighborhood and the everyday department and my everyday-to-day work and me as an individual, right? So I might not want to join a movement right afterwards, but at least I'm really more aware of... what to focus on, right? And maybe a question that I could ask or.

speaker-1: And that is actually a very good point. It follows a very systemic approach that Climb Physicians are. First part, understanding the whole system, the economic system. But then also, where are my entry points, where's my leverage, what kind of impact? And one of the exercises we can do in follow-up workshops is going through all the stakeholders that the company has. For example, we did for an event company and they have the artists, have the audience, have the technicians, they have the caterers, they have the labels. So they actually have, or it's just a normal company that produces, I don't know, screws, right? So they have the material providers, they have the builders, they have the architects and going through the stakeholders and ask them, how can we influence our stakeholders to enable and empower them to become more sustainable? And, Every company has lots of stakeholders and lots of levers to actually impact how they see the world and through that be part of the systemic change that we need in computation. And often that requires, for example, the domino example. If we want to put more effort into community building, ideally we have somebody who gives us money for it. And that requires public money. Because you will not get it from the people. Of course, they buy pizza. So maybe they pay for it. maybe so B2G, for example, would be a good lobbying goal to get more money from the governments. But with that, we would have to impact taxes because governments at the moment don't have enough money. And then we are again with companies becoming actually more systemic and more political themselves. From a business perspective, not from an ethical perspective, but from a pure business understanding.

speaker-0: you

speaker-0: And that said, when preparing for this recording, I also thought about myself and my own business as a freelancer, as someone who is getting hired. And I do know also consultants that either compensate here or have an extra charge for the environment on their invoice. And then just to make sure that we don't forget that we're, I don't know.

speaker-1: Yes.

speaker-0: fortunate or unfortunate sometimes you just hop on a plane and go somewhere to have a meeting.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I use that model with a business models handprints positive footprint negative footprint myself as well So my business model is my book and what do I do in the workplace with my customers? My handprint is how I engage politically and socially and then communication My negative footprint is my way of life and my positive footprint is my garden and my collecting the garbage when I'm going for a walk and my Giving money to the Rainforest Foundation and so I so I have these four areas and spheres of influence myself. And that kind of breaks it into actually doable, manageable things and helps people not feeling so overwhelmed.

speaker-0: Yes, yes. So now that we understood, you know, the start, the awareness, the feeling overwhelmed, feeling empowered, the idea or ideation, then the brainstorming and then the slicing it up so that we have something that we can walk away with, again, knowing there might be follow up workshops with you or internally. Right. The sponsor is. Let's look at the. game. again, you shared a whiteboard with me, which means you can conduct it online. Hybrid. Did you ever do like a hybrid session? A few folks in the room, a few online. mean, is that still a thing?

speaker-1: Yeah, since we work in breakout sessions, it's possible to have some of them in the room and some of them online. But obviously, a hybrid is always challenging.

speaker-0: Yeah. And as you described, right, it's also this discussion, right? This aha moments that you just don't always express. You also need to see them, right? You need to see it emerge. need to see, know, Yen's eyes when they go like, got you, got you. What is actually I normally ask this question a little bit later, but I think it's a good moment. What's the secret sauce of the

speaker-1: Amazing.

speaker-0: climate business challenge. mean, what really makes it work?

speaker-1: Well, to me, it's one participant once said that the cloud doing the habit business challenge for him was like somebody lifting the hood and making people see what they haven't seen before because they are so engaged and entangled in their everyday perspective that they don't see the whole system. And so they're also not aware of the leverage that they have and the constraints that they have. So they kind of muddled through and actually lifting the hood, seeing the whole thing. And then designing a strategy that actually incorporates the whole thing and makes sense comprehensively and is not de-prioritized once business goes into a different direction. And recognizing then, yes, it's really hard. It's really overwhelming. it's really, you feel very small, but you also see your sphere of influence. And knowing that your sphere of influence is limited. should not make us not use that sphere of influence. Giving up is a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then that lifting the hood, for me that's a secret sauce. And then the community part, the fun part, coming up with the ideas and working on the ideas of the others and being radical and crazy and really using all that. Also joy of thinking of what might happen, how might we? It's a design thinking inspired tool. it opens horizons.

speaker-2: Yeah, I go similar with you, especially the last part since I have a creative background. So be playful and be impactful at the same time. This is, think, where the magic is happening in this workshop. And many people, when I do it, for example, with the public, they really think like, wow, this is... already just on it fits on one post, but it's already groundbreaking. That's, that's so enormous. Like I could never imagine that I'm so powerful and I can change the world and whatever. Of course it takes a lot of step to really implement it, but to feel empowered and be able to, to work on a better world is not something abstract. can, you can start of course with a small ideas and then if you follow that path, probably people will follow you too.

speaker-0: Nice, nice. for me, it's also always so nice to see how playful encounters, playful moments, you know, make our learners, our participants not only feel impactful, but they are, right? Because you're always an actor in a game and that amplifies then the cause and the topics in some of the games out there. But that is really a nice combination.

speaker-1: And since people become aware that they're part of the system and yes, of course you can feel Like small or limited because you cannot change the system. Nobody of us can change the system But since we are all in the system, we can all change it from everywhere from every as a consumer as an employee as a citizen I Can impact that system as a customer as a service provider? And it does make a difference systemically speaking. It does make a difference And it's also about you know creating these social Tipping points and from research that in our introduction we show that it takes 25 % of the group for the whole okay to change direction And so so we don't have to get the support of all hundred percent Between three and twenty five percent and then the whole group the law of innovations has a sixteen percent of a market adopts a new

speaker-0: Yeah, that sounds doable. 16%. Right. So closing, slowly closing, because we also need to talk about how you facilitate and where to get the Gambia. But what's your ultimate facilitation tip? Right. And it does not have to be solely when facilitating the climate business challenge. It could be any facilitation tip that you want our listeners to be more aware of.

speaker-2: I would say have fun and show that you really want it. especially in the climate business challenge, some ideas are so big and so need so much courage that some people think like, well, that's nice, but nah, that's impossible. I don't see it, but to really give as a facilitator them the security that yes, even that, even that is possible. I think this is. really what then gives an influence to them, so that they feel empowered.

speaker-1: And for me, I'm a theory you inspired facilitator. So it's about designing the emotional journey of the employees and investing in the vessel, the social fabric of the group. That is actually very challenging. And that's why we sometimes break up the climate business challenge into two sessions, because it doesn't get too long and you still have time to actually let the group form and connect.

speaker-0: Yes, wonderful. I was reminded, Jan, when you said this, I think one interview partner, he called it plussing. I think he learned that from Jan. But not different, Jan. Actually, I might connect you because both Jans are in Berlin. But yeah, yeah, just holding that space, that space where things can emerge. And then, of course, we are in the you. we are in that emotional journey that. For me the other way around, we also do need emotions to unlock new parts of who we are, what we want, what we need to maybe sense that in a more, I would say, pure way.

speaker-1: Yeah, exactly.

speaker-2: Maybe one more thing, since we are here on the Serious Game podcast, mean, also the playfulness, this is super important that of course I can do a very dry ESG training with you and tell you this just one by one. Like I tell you what to change in your life, but it's much better if you have it interactive, if they share their own knowledge and if they learn from each other. So this is then. where also the magic is happening.

speaker-0: Wonderful. So I'll link all of the references and colleagues and podcast episodes and people and frameworks. You mentioned the climate fresh, right? And I understand there is a community. So back to the community, right? So there is a community and then I think you downloaded, I think you visited workshops. How did you design the climate business challenge? So I understood. Yeah, just walk us through. Do we always call you or I understand? Everyone can become a facilitator or how does it work?

speaker-1: Yeah, well, obviously there's a website that you're going to link climate minus business minus challenge dot com. And so you get also access to the image film and get some information. And we have regular workshops for facilitators. And it's just not challenging. It's actually inspired. Many things are inspired by the climate first in the climate. So we also use mural. There is a myro version, but I use mural. And it's also about moving cars around. So some of the aspects are very comparable. and working in breakout sessions and also the business model as a facilitator. It's also Creative Commons licensed and the facilitators just give 10 % of their revenues to planet groups and then the rest they can do as they please. becoming a workshop facilitator, you have to attend this facilitation workshop once and you do have to have a supervised session supervised by me. not an extraordinary amount, but then you can take it and use it. You can, especially in the second part, make adjustments to it. That's different from climate fresco. think you're more free to adjust it to customer specific requirements.

speaker-0: question.

speaker-0: Yes, yes, or your favorite industry or your line of expertise, know, or the sizes of groups that you facilitate. There was one question, I just forgot it. Wonderful, wonderful. Yes, talking about the community. How many facilitators are there? I mean, and did you ever share when you released the first version of the game?

speaker-1: Actually, I don't know myself because you have these iterations, but the first one was in early 21 with my own team, Planet Groups team, and I still remember it. Most of them thought it was awful, but there a ones that said, oh, there is something I really like about it. then, right, now I forgot the question.

speaker-0: Yes, how many facilitators

speaker-1: I think we have 56 at the moment. Okay. And they are international. we have English and German version of the, the, again, we have some French facilitators and working on actually developing a French version of

speaker-0: Wonderful, Great. Is there anything we have? mean, you know, in those 60 minutes that we had, but is there anything that we did not talk about that you think is also important for our listeners to know to soon click on the website, maybe get in touch with you or visit one of your workshops or just look up your work and then how it all came together and the inspirations they can draw from your game.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think it's just visited. as this one bank of the automotive OEM said, we want our management team to see this as a business topic and see it as something positive that they can build something positive from and not as a bureaucratic burden with numbers crunching and reducing and reporting and something detached from their everyday lives. And we want them to understand that this is something they can create and be positive about and be part of the business. And yeah, that's you have to experience it and feel it and do it and then take it. just follow us. There are some open sessions, but most of it that what we do is done in-house. So just get in touch and we'll find ways how you can experience it.

speaker-2: to answer the same question differently from a player's perspective. So if you're curious about how the world works around you and which kind of system everybody is embedded like this big spider web and you cannot get out, the climate business challenge is exactly where you look into it, where you see the net around you and everything. So last comparison to the climate business challenge. Okay, climate fresco, sorry. Climate change is something big out there and you cannot, you can rarely see it. You can a bit grasp it. You see some infographics here and there. It's quite abstract, but when you get to the climate business challenge, you really see, wow, the system is like that and it's working constantly. And I'm actually just one piece of the system and I'm doing my part of it to of course destroy the planet. This is not good, but there's something where really, where it really kicks in and Me as a curious player, can just explore the system and think like, okay, well, maybe I don't know, need to change my career, could be.

speaker-0: Yes

speaker-1: That's it. This is we're bad people and there is no such thing as bad companies Although of course there are companies acting in a very bad manner but they also tell themselves a story that what they do is necessary or inevitable and Actually realizing it's not inevitable. We are not morally defects people we can change and then developing pathways where and how that's

speaker-0: Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I might label this episode like, you know, reaching the 16%. And as you said, you know, overcoming this, this paralysis of, I cannot do something. And yes, when we think of systems, yeah, we need to start somewhere. And we can start with small actions, which is totally, totally fine and totally empowering and inviting others into that conversation. And hopefully by sharing this episode and your game and reaching out to you and learning more about your wonderful work and also the Climate Fresc. And there's so much in that area. will also have some other climate-themed series games on the podcast. I'll link everything in the show notes. And if you want to reach out to Tim or Jan, you will find them on LinkedIn or on their website. Thank you. Thank you too for sharing this morning. have to say we opted in for a very early recording. Thank you for waking up that early. Thanks for having us.

speaker-2: Yes, thanks. Your podcast is really inspiring, so it's really cool to dive into.

speaker-0: Thank you. Thank you to and to all our listeners. Yes, have a look at the show notes. I have the feeling that the list will be very long. But again, take your time and start with the first step. Until the next time, bye bye. You can reach us at hello at keylearning.net. We're looking forward to your suggestions, comments and feedback.