00:00:02: Hello and welcome to the series games podcast all about playful methods for interactive trainings and facilitation.

00:00:10: Let's get started And Welcome back to the serious Games Podcast, and today I am connected.

00:00:16: Okay?

00:00:17: I need a read this Otter Bayak.

00:00:19: It's in The Felsa Wilde.

00:00:21: i probably gonna just put A link on On a map In the show notes And I'm Connected with Doctor Philip Bush, welcome to the podcast.

00:00:31: Hello and thank you so much for having me!

00:00:34: Oh wonderful I know...I mean look i will also link all the work that you're doing right.

00:00:39: uh on with mind games and your book and um all the other wonderful things.

00:00:46: Okay, this is in the opening.

00:00:49: I'm announcing the second episode but for sure we must at one point talk again about maybe a specific game or a specific simulation and how you brought it to the world.

00:01:00: And today We're talking because You are A co-organizer of The Serious Play Conference.

00:01:09: Now some of our listeners might know This series play conference Canada the

00:01:14: U.S.,

00:01:15: and two thousand twenty-six is the first year where the conference will take place in Germany, in Mainz which is close by where you live on the other side of Germany.

00:01:26: for me!

00:01:27: And I thought it's so important...I

00:01:32: had

00:01:33: Matthias Polsumon did show a portrait of The Counterplay Festival and contemplate community.

00:01:44: And I thought it was so important to portray different play game, play based communities causes associations publishers even so that our listeners can understand what is really out there?

00:02:04: Where's an overlap?

00:02:06: where are different target

00:02:08: groups involved

00:02:10: in?

00:02:10: of course who behind all of that work being done.

00:02:14: So the series play conference will happen this year, we'll link everything and talk about dates And it's a very long opening right.

00:02:23: but Philip I understand you know one of the promises is not only a conference.

00:02:31: so really there are lots things also going on On the side in the evenings on the weekend afterwards, right?

00:02:39: Not only to explore the region and minds which is beautiful nice but also To get...to know each other.To really connect

00:02:49: And not

00:02:49: just do business But to do business AND Right!

00:02:54: To connect into understand.

00:02:56: You Know our ways of using play Using games Our playful spirits.

00:03:03: So let's talk about all of that.

00:03:06: And here are my two traditional questions, right?

00:03:08: After a very long opening what should our listeners know about you?

00:03:12: and how do you explain the serious play conference to someone who's never heard about it in an elevator pitch style?

00:03:21: Allright yeah.

00:03:22: I'll try my best to be short and precise on myself, so we have more time in the serious play conference.

00:03:28: So yeah I'm Philip.

00:03:31: i was starting my career in development cooperation back then working for GIZ German Development Corporation um And starting in the e-learning sector The traditional E learning sector.

00:03:44: As you probably all know, there's a lot of super boring e-learning content out there where you have to click through hundreds of slides and all this.

00:03:53: So what happened is I thought how can we improve it?

00:03:57: Then i found about gamification series games and everything connected with that.

00:04:02: I directly fell in love with the topic knew that was intuitively already doing my entire life and then had the chance to write my PhD on the topic as an alternative portfolio of international cooperation.

00:04:17: And now, yeah I had the chance to implement a lot of serious games and gamified systems all around the world so from reforestation in Afghanistan over to peace support in Yemen sustainable tourism in Africa and so on...and then i started my own company called Mind Games and supporting different institutions with these topics and now have the big chance, an honor to organize this serious play conference.

00:04:48: And yeah that's basically about me... Oh

00:04:54: absolutely!

00:04:55: So what is it?

00:04:56: Exactly yes so The Serious Play Conference exists since I think two thousand six or nineteen years ago implemented by Subol and now was a couple of years ago, good friends.

00:05:14: And wonderful studio called Goldbug Interactive.

00:05:18: with Paul and Elisa they took over an organizing the conference in North America.

00:05:26: yeah, gathers you know all the people that are working in this sector of serious games.

00:05:35: Serious play gamification across all sectors.

00:05:39: so across museums K-twelve education higher education companies onboarding recruiting but also military simulation or healthcare simulation.

00:05:50: So combining like lots of different genres to say our sectors and bringing all of these creative people together to, you know exchange for a couple days get-to-know each other network.

00:06:04: Get inspired by people And come out this conference with A lot new ideas and wonderful people To collaborate within the future.

00:06:16: Yes,

00:06:16: yes.

00:06:17: Great!

00:06:17: So you're answering my next question right?

00:06:19: What's the transformation that you were hoping to inspire with everyone attending?

00:06:26: and yeah just a shout out to Tutsu, Paul and Lisa and I will link all of their Work companies profiles in the show notes.

00:06:37: Yeah, so you mentioned that they're rich history right of The series play conference.

00:06:43: yeah two thousand and six and What do you know?

00:06:50: what would be I mean?

00:06:51: Two thousand six.

00:06:52: wow i mean Do You Know a little bit over to back history was I think

00:07:02: that people needed a place to exchange, because in all of these different sectors and areas... uh, was describing was basically people were always kind of like the nerds that we're doing some kind of game based approaches.

00:07:20: Playful learning gamification series games and nobody liked.

00:07:25: they were quite isolated I would say sometimes in their areas in their sectors.

00:07:30: this was kind of the place where people could, you know come together from different areas.

00:07:36: And now they were not outsiders anymore but those who are exchanging with each other and see ah!

00:07:43: You're also doing games in a totally different field But there's like the nerdy person that is doing it.

00:07:51: There we combined to gather all these people back then Not me.

00:07:55: This wasn't my place To go From starting point basically developed and grew with a wonderful community, which makes I think there are different conferences out.

00:08:16: There's something special about serious play in terms of like the community and the vibes, and the atmosphere over there.

00:08:23: When I was there for the first time... And this is actually where we met two years ago?

00:08:27: Yes!

00:08:28: Two years ago iIwasthereforthefirsttimeaswellintorontoandthereisaspecificmagic that you can hardly describe.. I don't know how you perceived it.

00:08:48: Definitely in the States or Canada and then I know they were alternating for first four times, right?

00:08:54: And i connected to a lot of people that i knew from LinkedIn.

00:08:58: We've been exchanging and meeting um...and i love That.

00:09:07: on one hand you could as he said write could go to uh very i mean inspirational talk on how to use role-playing games with children.

00:09:18: uh, in school and they're just reading the books about the characters.

00:09:24: And then all of the teachers are asking you know how do you make those kids read right?

00:09:29: All the way to a very tailored I would say even technical um simulation that's rolled out You Know in factories Right Um...and what i liked The magic..I would say the passion that the attendees brought.

00:09:54: It's really not in terms of, oh look I need to sell something or this is all hidden sorry secret right?

00:10:03: This is really no we meet and now still trying see myself as a nerd.

00:10:09: but then it's really true in terms you know we are passionate about yes there different ways using simulations games and unpacked out into episode little bit.

00:10:21: But that was for me the magic, right?

00:10:24: No matter if it's a researcher from Japan or you know of passionate hobby tabletop role player.

00:10:32: That has day-to-day job.

00:10:35: so its really this unique mix.

00:10:41: I would say

00:10:43: Yeah, I agree.

00:10:44: And actually like this year for the first time we're trying to basically build on this because i think This is the essence you know?

00:10:52: Like those awesome people that are gathering We're just offering The space but it's the People who fill It with this magic Who are attending.

00:11:01: and Perhaps On the attendees That were Trying To kind of scale it up Germany to Europe.

00:11:09: or we have the Euro edition takes place in Germany, but it's a Europe Edition.

00:11:16: Basically We have five different areas of people are target audiences that approach.

00:11:24: so basically The first area is like the creative sector.

00:11:29: Yeah, so all people from the creative sectors.

00:11:31: People who are doing games were producing games for artists coders developers sound engineers whatever.

00:11:38: So everybody was in the and a creative sector and potentially able to contribute towards serious game or serious play experience right?

00:11:48: So creatives is one.

00:11:50: number two is corporates companies industry.

00:11:54: Yeah, this is also something that we are trying to put a little bit more focus on because like serious play, serious games is cross innovation and companies need to understand that they can benefit from making use of games.

00:12:10: And that's why we're inviting like people who would actually be customers right for these creative people?

00:12:17: Yes!

00:12:18: Who would you know?

00:12:18: give them a contract idea Lea at the end of this series Play Conference say yeah I have a problem.

00:12:23: please help me with a playful solution.

00:12:26: so were trying to invite companies do this as well, so they can explore the opportunities of gaming sector like everything related to play.

00:12:38: Then number three is research.

00:12:41: Research is also like universities, institutions that we are having and talking about impact measurement.

00:12:49: How can you measure the impacts of games?

00:12:51: but from an ethical point-of view how to discuss serious play or game as a potential instrument for manipulation?

00:13:03: What's our responsibility in this as designers As you know customers what to understand.

00:13:12: What is basically behind it?

00:13:13: number four?

00:13:14: Is politics and, you know public sector.

00:13:18: There will be also a lot of politicians who will be there Who need to understand more about the topic.

00:13:25: Of course we have The Gamescom You Know in Cologne And everybody like every politician now understands the power.

00:13:31: this

00:13:32: oh yes right

00:13:34: But Like with This We're Trying To Close The Gap.

00:13:38: how we can ideally use this.

00:13:41: playful approaches also like in other scenarios, not only for entertainment.

00:13:46: And the fifth and last one is international cooperation.

00:13:51: so institutions like World Food Program, GSZ EU will be there.

00:13:55: We'll show them making use of serious games to contribute a better world.

00:14:02: Also being there today

00:14:05: Wonderful!

00:14:08: Ah, where to start now?

00:14:09: I would love to maybe even take three steps back and maybe before we then all meet in minds and discuss you know were to use playful encounters moments games And more.

00:14:28: Maybe we should just for a second differentiate between your gamification series games and you know playful moments.

00:14:38: Um, yeah.

00:14:42: How do you play in general?

00:14:45: Should

00:14:45: we just define it and

00:14:48: try

00:14:51: now?

00:14:53: Genius ideas have a thirty second definition.

00:14:58: but okay let's first talk about the conferences called series play right.

00:15:05: um so Series and play.

00:15:10: What is it?

00:15:13: You want to go first, we can do this together And then we'll see

00:15:16: you start in.

00:15:16: I will.

00:15:17: okay

00:15:18: Okay, let's go for series right.

00:15:20: so i love To explain as my think once through like a parameter.

00:15:25: So there Is A learning objective or Let's say There isn't Objective Right For Us Doing This Now, in my case I would qualify as...I'm wondering.

00:15:39: And probably in the contributor area right?

00:15:43: As a facilitator yeah!

00:15:45: So um..as i use playful moments to strengthen and reach a learning objective mostly corporate learning LND last couple of years for large SAP transformation It always has an intent, it as a goal.

00:16:11: Okay?

00:16:13: That in comparison to when you mentioned GamesCon or any other game that we just play for entertaining reason or reconnecting with family and friends... ...that's one part.

00:16:24: And then Play.

00:16:28: Here is not easy because In the English language We have two words right!

00:16:37: play and game.

00:16:38: because sometimes it could also be called the series games conference, right?

00:16:42: And I hear interesting parts.

00:16:44: So Play & Game...play for me is more open in terms of.

00:16:51: we agreed to play were invited voluntarily.

00:16:54: again i'm happy to list all your official components and definitions.

00:16:59: But then if we look at games in comparison to play, um Games mostly invite to play you know?

00:17:06: Um but they come then with a maybe A set of

00:17:10: rules roles.

00:17:11: Um With the storyline Maybe even with materials right.

00:17:17: So that's my first my my.

00:17:18: yeah nice

00:17:19: Yeah We're heading in the same direction.

00:17:21: so I'm also using uh this pyramid usually because like on the bottom You know Like i'm trying to to have like different steps of this pyramid.

00:17:31: So I'm literally starting with human centered design on the bottom, you know.

00:17:36: then putting on top of these aspects like behavioral design experience designed UX design interaction design motivational design and all of these aspect basically build one each other.

00:17:48: it's a. basically.

00:17:51: further You go up in this pyramid The more specific targets and what are basically, What is the frame of the experience that you're creating?

00:18:04: Right.

00:18:05: And then there's like I can give you like the definitions that i'm using usually if we want to with

00:18:13: yeah Of course!

00:18:14: For instance...I mean it's not easy because everybody is designing differently.

00:18:18: but this my approach for instance playful design would be Designing experiences Defining allowed actions of the player with the intent, intent or fun.

00:18:32: Yeah?

00:18:32: So I think a playful design like fun is like the central element in it and basically you have certain actions yeah all restrictions that your yet That you're doing that you are about to do or And um With the main intent of fun.

00:18:48: if we were doing like a playful Design then Um Like a game.

00:18:52: on the other hand If you're thinking really about a game as for me a time box experience where player tries to overcome obstacles, to achieve objectives.

00:19:06: To modify the end state of the game while following a set of

00:19:12: rules.".

00:19:13: So this is no long sentence I know but basically it's like when you think of a game its timeboxed and your following rule so that you need to over come obstacles in all these things and understand as a game.

00:19:27: And now, on top of this we have gamification in serious games whereby series-game for me is the game created... ...for primary purpose other than pure entertainment.

00:19:41: I mean there's also the definition by Dieter Ring that it very similar but This one to my like the primary purpose is Other Than Pure Fun.

00:19:55: It can be fun.

00:19:56: It should be a serious game, sometimes

00:19:59: they are.

00:20:00: and this is also where it comes to like the maturity of series games when we see an increase in quality which is very needed.

00:20:09: but you know its still a game that can be analog or digital hybrid.

00:20:15: and then at the end we have gamification design for playful experiences one experience several with a primary purpose other than pure fun.

00:20:28: So this is also like, there's just playful experience that I was describing first.

00:20:34: as you can see the difference is we're not having specifically a game here.

00:20:40: so in gamification it's more open and i don't need a goal or time boxed experience.

00:20:49: It's just a playful experience with another primary purpose could be learning, motivation and branding.

00:21:02: And again I can also put the definitions in show notes but you know why i was attempting to define this.

00:21:13: I mean, this is the common ground that we're all meeting during a conference.

00:21:18: And everyone from as you mentioned five areas or five target groups.

00:21:24: But there's so many possibilities to.

00:21:28: not only it's about only fixing the dysfunctions out.

00:21:31: There are So many possibilities that, they're beyond what we were doing right now.

00:21:38: and yes of course you know their digital games but there a lot of analog game Right?

00:21:43: Their conversational games And then there little game full experiences or where we That can be attached to different things, right?

00:21:56: Yes.

00:21:56: Some might be a learning goal others might be meeting and then there might be assimilation or creative or an arty in the public space cause of other causes that we humans tend have on this planet.

00:22:10: So wow, it's unlimited possibilities.

00:22:12: I would say

00:22:13: almost yeah.

00:22:14: It is also not that important.

00:22:16: Is this gamification?

00:22:19: Actually for me doesn't really matter at the end of all experience design For Me because like we are developing We're designing experiences That Are taking place ultimately in The head you know Of the other person.

00:22:35: People can get physical with this as well, but at the end you know like you perceive it and You experience kind of all these experiences in your mind.

00:22:45: And therefore It doesn't matter if I learn how to do this from a game or movie Or theater or whatever.

00:22:55: Like i can learn so many different things And of course, like we are focusing on really than the playful approach.

00:23:02: But I think something like a story that is part of game.

00:23:07: it doesn't matter if this is just a game element or as there's movie elements you know obviously be at all.

00:23:16: but what do i mean?

00:23:18: So we want to learn and bring these creative people together who make these experience more about them.

00:23:26: Yes, and then you know obviously our listeners are interested in serious games.

00:23:34: But here's the thing as we all know from own experience or definitely observe someone being immersed in a game how it unlocks not only emotions but also thoughts and reflection and epic wins beyond.

00:23:54: if now you know, mix that up with again an objective learning objective or um and we still need to think about this object as beyond fun.

00:24:12: but if we connect this through a cause or two a learning project is too a topic.

00:24:17: Two I know you've done wonderful work also complex topics to maybe less educated participants.

00:24:33: You know, this is just so great how we can share that story and then unlock the story in heads of players.

00:24:43: So

00:24:44: if y'all meet To use what and if the right skills are in the room, some people could make it happen.

00:24:52: They literally design and create games.

00:24:54: And you mentioned to research very important.

00:24:56: no game is neutral Right?

00:24:58: That's love.

00:24:58: What I love to say that we also need a watch out of what we're focusing on because It also means there were lots of things that we're not focusing on in that moment.

00:25:07: right.

00:25:08: and then my core focus really The facilitation.

00:25:12: right.

00:25:12: who was the one who was inviting to play with whatever or whatever method that's out there, but how do we frame it?

00:25:20: And where can we reframe and support our participants beyond the game mechanics.

00:25:27: So wonderful conversations like this could happen during the conference.

00:25:33: Now here is my question... This a lot called The Definitions!

00:25:41: And the five areas of the conference and history.

00:25:47: What about fear of missing out or being overwhelmed?

00:25:52: as a first-time attendee?

00:25:55: Would be your tip to someone who's now thinking, oh that sounds interesting.

00:26:00: I would love to learn more and who is coming for the first time but what are you tips?

00:26:07: What should they do or what?

00:26:09: I think the heart and spirit of this entire conference is to community.

00:26:14: It's really that people who are there, doing awesome work all around the world... Yeah it might be overwhelming because we have almost over a hundred speakers from across the whole continent with wonderful examples.

00:26:30: We have so many different formats.

00:26:33: We have inspiration talks, we have workshops... ...we have design sprints where you can actually create a small team on solutions new systems that will then be developed in the future perhaps?

00:26:50: the speaker along the river and have like in a small group, more direct personal conversation that you are having.

00:27:00: We have exhibition areas, analogue and bookings.

00:27:04: so there's massive offer that can do.

00:27:08: but as mentioned the key for people who come first time is to connect with them.

00:27:19: The atmosphere because we also, you know We support the network and we have an app where people can easily You know get together into that work in all of these things.

00:27:29: But there's also Then super nice possibilities for you to easily meet New people.

00:27:37: we have of course a lot of playful experiences that support this to come also to invite new People through the community and just you know make some high-quality contact with people.

00:27:49: And Also, Make use of the offer That We are doing With The extra conference activities so To say Right, so we're offering boat trips.

00:27:58: We are offering city tours were offering a party and all of these things.

00:28:04: And this is off course the perfect time to meet new interesting people not only in their super you know Conferency style but like with real people with really wonderful people that are coming there.

00:28:17: This would be my number one advice Connect with them make use of the connection offers

00:28:24: Wonderful, wonderful.

00:28:25: And again the community is also visible right?

00:28:27: So yes not only the speaker list but then there's lots of posts and history and colleagues that do like to you know Not only Come in share on the conference But are so spread words You know in the internet than and beyond Of what they're doing and then that they willing to happily share What this communities about.

00:28:49: now let's also talk about the other side.

00:28:53: play um the dark side of it.

00:28:56: No, but really I was having a conversation this morning with my co-author Anna and we are you know thinking about...I don't know if i'm going to call it Miss Buster or what do you say to someone who says well but play come on.

00:29:18: That's for children, right?

00:29:20: And again we know they of course and even animals.

00:29:24: I will list this podcast episode with Manuel Graslai.

00:29:29: Just listened a couple days ago.

00:29:32: but okay animals playful behavior Children.

00:29:36: yes Yes Now were adults.

00:29:39: so We went through school and we you know learned something did our research and now we're in this work environment, which is changing every day.

00:29:54: And we have those corporates... Those organizations.

00:29:56: again it's not only about you know businesses.

00:29:59: there could be any organization We don't have time for that right?

00:30:05: We didn't have to simulate.

00:30:08: what does one of your responses?

00:30:12: if You hear that being said on a table

00:30:16: I see

00:30:17: next to you that during the conference

00:30:21: Yeah, well it depends on On the culture.

00:30:25: I would say because uh i was You know making use of these approaches in many different cultures around The world and some of them are super open And they're making use Of this a way ahead of us.

00:30:36: In that regard, you Know?

00:30:38: Some cultures even more behind than Us but I Would Say our European Culture Unfortunately Is not You know, a pioneer.

00:30:49: Let's call it like this and they specifically... Like you had your experiences.

00:30:55: obviously everybody who listens to these podcasts is interested in this but people do have a lot of conservative people that are saying yeah no this for children not us because we're doing serious business And I mean what i'm trying Get then the access to is okay.

00:31:18: Like what about motivational design?

00:31:20: Would you like your people who are making use of your product or your, um employees to be more motivated in certain regards?

00:31:28: You know would they be a more emotionally connected to the product and stuff like this and that say yes Yes Of course Okay.

00:31:34: And here's super powerful tool called Gamefication series games play for the time whatever you want to call it that you can use.

00:31:42: And then, people are slowly understanding.

00:31:45: but what I was also experiencing with the conference now is when i talk to companies who aren't using it yet like any type of playful Instruments so to say they said all that all sounds super interesting.

00:32:04: That sounds perfect, but we're not in the gaming sector.

00:32:07: So it's not for us.

00:32:08: And this is exactly what I want to change.

00:32:11: This is exactly like this pain point that I see.

00:32:14: and where?

00:32:15: We need a cultural Change In order you know To transform to more playful society that has more interactive more connected.

00:32:24: two emotions Understand that they can massively make use of this and, um Of course with like the regulations that we should talk.

00:32:37: We've like The instruments of manipulation at the ethical

00:32:41: yes

00:32:42: consideration But on the other hand like more people need to know it And it's not like a zero two one Switch that we can say, okay.

00:32:51: Now We did this one thing and now everybody knows about it.

00:32:54: It's a cultural change That we're here trying to To trigger And that is currently taking place because more and More people understand the power of games specifically if you check out like The numbers in the entertainment market.

00:33:08: You Can easily Say Okay Check Out the Entertainment Market It is massive, it has many regions bigger than music and film combined.

00:33:17: So why are you not making use of it now?

00:33:19: And then people start reflecting.

00:33:22: Yes yes we talked about earlier causes besides fun right um...and again I don't think that every gamer out there current gamer future game out there needs to also.

00:33:37: We learn solely through games, right?

00:33:41: But you know we get a fraction of those mechanics ideas best practices things that are working.

00:33:50: That's wonderful.

00:33:54: I somehow stopped talking about Games saying that on the series

00:34:01: games podcast.

00:34:03: but sometimes assimilation or it's a decision-based, scenario based moment when I can introduce that.

00:34:17: oh let's build some scenarios.

00:34:19: That participants will then need to tackle and they either share back where the need to give points each other whatever... That sometimes clicks little bit more faster Because assimilation, ah it's clear.

00:34:34: It is only in my head or on the board right?

00:34:36: Or under white paper and then um...it something that I do to prepare myself for a future.

00:34:43: Yeah!

00:34:44: That exactly what we did with games

00:34:45: Right?!

00:34:47: And specifically when you can say yeah..and this whole narrative The story ,the content The speed, the time box You know level of challenge That could all be adjusted and tailored And I will even say it must be tailored to the mission, right?

00:35:08: To day-to-day of the participants.

00:35:11: Yeah

00:35:12: and maybe i can put some... Maybe ask you this would be a long list show notes but there is evidence out where we could literally say that yes the closer, the nearer.

00:35:27: The things that we tinker with during a workshop or learning moment are closer to day-to-day of what they will experience when Wednesday left the room for their learning moments.

00:35:40: it doesn't have to be in the room right?

00:35:41: It can also beyond.

00:35:45: That increases the likelihood that new behavior and thinking will be transferred.

00:35:51: I mean, there's for me what i see with this kind of problem that this industry is facing since its beginning.

00:36:00: I would say um yes uh I usually think about like two target groups a primary and the secondary target group.

00:36:07: And uh The primary target group.

00:36:11: it depends on how you're how you're defining it, but are those people that are then buying the series game or giving like a contract to build this.

00:36:23: And most of these people basically decision makers and commissioners.

00:36:28: they need to understand design your offer for them.

00:36:34: so what is added value?

00:36:36: If there's someone who likes to hear the word simulation rather than game, then it is not tricking them because if you're building a simulation that's exactly this.

00:36:48: For instance the example from Afghanistan where we were talking to the NGOs in Afghanistan.

00:36:54: they said We can never go for serious games here.

00:37:00: and of course A, this is not really true.

00:37:03: But like in the professional context we just then called it simulation and everybody was on board and everyone lost.

00:37:10: And uh... Then you have secondary target group which somehow also the primary target groups are those people that actually doing this for instance workshop participants who were playing a game or going through the simulation whatever.

00:37:24: So there's two target audience to satisfy.

00:37:28: basically.

00:37:28: first commissioner participants, the

00:37:33: players.

00:37:34: Yeah

00:37:38: but I think this is quite specific and those moments where you can talk and exchange also on the conference, you know with people that are having these experiences in all of different sectors.

00:37:52: I always hear this conversations how do use it?

00:37:58: How to convince a person who makes use of what's around them when they're exchanging or giving each other advice.

00:38:09: Wonderful!

00:38:10: Again we could probably talk for... Forty more minutes, but maybe I will ask you for one unique moment or yeah.

00:38:19: Yeah One-one unique moment from the series play community That that stuck with you.

00:38:26: just something where you say?

00:38:27: Yeah, that's what i felt.

00:38:29: not only the power of

00:38:31: You

00:38:31: know game full applied games But also The power of how we can multiply our thoughts are work impact.

00:38:44: Yeah, so there was one moment and basically it wasn't a single moment but started with the panel that I was on.

00:38:53: then discussions were triggered by this panel afterwards... ...was about monitoring and maturing of serious games and playful design So to say.

00:39:06: And i think for me very interesting because Everybody, you know wants to go the next level with serious games because we experienced in the past too many bad examples of serious games and gamified systems where people just throw in some point better leaderboards.

00:39:26: And say now so more extrinsic motivators are now it's fun in a game.

00:39:30: notes not like this but like The maturing off of the design on this This is something that I don't know.

00:39:38: Like there i recognized there for the first time that people all around the world are getting better in this, you know?

00:39:46: And they're... You have all of these experts who basically understand their craft.

00:39:52: They understand what they do and want to share it with other people.

00:39:57: so we've been on the same mission because those people good people that want to contribute to a better world and support each other.

00:40:08: And have, you know some sustainable projects in all of these things.

00:40:15: They're also at the same time super-good on what they are doing and willing to share.

00:40:20: it's not this heavy competition as many different conferences about selling here is really exchanging growing together getting inspirations And this was a moment where we felt, okay.

00:40:34: There's like not only the games and the products I'm maturing but also like the quality of the community is kind of evolving.

00:40:45: Yes sounds great.

00:40:47: Sounds great in end when you were talking about that the quality and leveling up their quality there's Also i think We shortly talked About This.

00:40:59: yes There is

00:41:01: also

00:41:03: the International Serious Play Award, right?

00:41:07: And now that this conference is happening for the first time in continental Europe I heard you will be... there would some awards announced.

00:41:19: It's okay to show them but what i really want ask and we will link the website.

00:41:23: then you can see all of the award description.

00:41:29: What is your take on what makes a good game and what makes it great?

00:41:37: Um, yeah.

00:41:39: What makes an award-winning game would you like to see again knowing that You're not part of the judges for that awards?

00:41:47: so I totally fine from me to ask questions.

00:41:52: Yeah, exactly.

00:41:53: So perhaps to a first point yeah we have like the awards.

00:41:56: We have these international Awards and we announce winners in The Europe Edition as well As we announced certain winners In the North America edition.

00:42:05: so also at day two before Like the party starts on Day Two in Mines Then the Awards will be announced The Winners Will Be Announced And then it'll be nice possibility To celebrate afterwards.

00:42:21: But What makes a good serious game, what makes the good playful experience?

00:42:28: For me like the core of it is to understand that target audience and to adapt.

00:42:36: The experience two year target audience because This now goes a little bit into didactics when we're thinking, for instance about the learning game.

00:42:45: We need to show the target audience.

00:42:48: they need to understand the relevance of it so that the experience needs to be relevant and connected with their status quo.

00:42:59: That that basically the ship is leaving together with them and not you know requires them to jump in.

00:43:07: In the middle of the ocean.

00:43:08: now, they're there.

00:43:09: The ship experiences.

00:43:11: it's in the harbor where our target audience starts an takes them towards their destination through a user journey.

00:43:18: this is super important.

00:43:20: And then off course that all the learning content that is emotionally should be emotionally hooked into experience as well is in an integrated design, so to say what I would say as a bad example.

00:43:36: for instance sequential designs.

00:43:38: Sequential design.

00:43:39: we have first fun and then boring learning.

00:43:44: people understand this super quickly.

00:43:49: but if you are able your objectives, whatever a serious objective you might have.

00:43:54: Might be learning or something else.

00:43:56: Integrate these into the game mechanics not only in the story and not only visuals but really in the mechanics as well then on very good track.

00:44:06: I think that we are already doing it with series games.

00:44:09: for me what makes also a very good series game is more and more because impact measurement is something that's too often overlooked.

00:44:24: and if you say, can you prove it?

00:44:27: Perhaps there are some evidence.

00:44:29: Actually now they're awesome.

00:44:30: scientific studies show like the impact of serious gains but we need more.

00:44:36: We need to integrate this into design implementation.

00:44:41: It not about.

00:44:43: It's not only about the product itself, but it is about implementation of a product.

00:44:53: How do you implement and evaluate?

00:44:56: You need to understand how you want to evaluate at very beginning so that you can build or design for this.

00:45:06: So this for me makes then a great series game.

00:45:09: If it's doing like good design, combined with impact measurement that is relevant and emotionally charged...

00:45:18: And I'd also echo those questions when i think about serious games to the whole sponsor or organization

00:45:27: where we

00:45:28: are considering using them right?

00:45:35: How is the organization and supporting, you know?

00:45:37: The player in showing using.

00:45:41: The new skills that knew whatever it's supposed to be triggered by a playful encounter as serious game or gaming fight moment?

00:45:52: Wow That's a lot to talk about during those couple

00:45:59: of days

00:45:59: in mind.

00:46:00: Yes, but there are more conferences and India is another one in summer than now.

00:46:14: Philip, I have so many notes here and again more notes on what to put in the show notes.

00:46:21: But then i definitely encourage everyone to literally you know click one or two but come and discuss whatever you found or wherever we're thinking... Or bring people that should be discussing either heard or read about.

00:46:36: is there anything that we did not talk before asking my couple of final questions?

00:46:44: Yeah.

00:46:44: I mean, perhaps two things.

00:46:46: first is we have also these communities that you know on LinkedIn Discord and all of this.

00:46:52: so there's an invitation to join the community already before the event?

00:46:58: Yes!

00:47:00: And then also regarding the event itself yeah.

00:47:05: So perhaps one last thing i want Transport or communicate to all of you who are listening right now that we really design this entire conference as an experience.

00:47:18: It's not only about like the amazing talks that were having it's not on leave out like two workshops other networking opportunities, but basically what do want is that go there you're connecting with people that are getting inspired, coming up new projects together.

00:47:37: You've never met from all around the world and just enjoying your time because we have so many extraconferent activities like the party or boat trip life music... And at the same time, there's actually The Biggest Festival in Mines taking place.

00:47:58: At the same Time called Johannes Nacht Jansfest and basically you have a lot of possibilities to experience wonderful things There and doing Of course also party.

00:48:10: this is also You can do but there's Also A Lot of Cultural Offers.

00:48:14: We Are Also Partnering with the Johannes Gutenberg Museum?

00:48:17: And you Have A lot of Ways To Do This and Connect With People and Make This Really A Memoral Experience.

00:48:23: Wow, wow sounds like I don't know a hundred hour day.

00:48:31: As he said you know it's the platform.

00:48:33: It's a community.

00:48:34: there's multiple i would even say unlimited ways to To connect which means There's something in for everyone right.

00:48:43: so no matter if your looking For this one industry use case and want to discuss with someone who has worked on it.

00:48:50: or If You just Want?

00:48:51: explore the whole a variety of what play games can mean and be.

00:49:01: Or if you just want to, enjoy The Whole Buffet Of What Is Offered In Those Sessions.

00:49:12: Wow!

00:49:13: Okay LinkedIn discord even more on show notes.

00:49:16: now they're getting longer.

00:49:21: My final question, is there a specific quote or core principle about play that personally guided your work in this field?

00:49:38: A quote for play that guided me.

00:49:42: Yeah!

00:49:45: Or could be also a principal...

00:49:46: I think my core principle as an interactive instrument to contribute to a better world.

00:50:03: This is actually what I am trying, uh...to do.

00:50:06: What Is My Personal Mission?

00:50:08: Vision?

00:50:08: What is basically what-what i'm following?

00:50:11: Yeah so..I want to make use of this super powerful instrument in order to yeah To Do Something Good!

00:50:19: Yes wonderful Wonderful Last words before our listeners can now explore the very long show notes and we will hide.

00:50:31: Also a discount

00:50:32: code.

00:50:33: Have you saying like look they talked about this for couple of minutes?

00:50:37: I think I need to go have a look.

00:50:40: How does is working?

00:50:42: Yeah, going find that discount code in these show notes And for sure If you have any questions, reach out to either Philip.

00:50:53: Reach out me or the other wonderful community members and also let us know afterwards how it was!

00:51:02: And what would've loved if we'd known beforehand.

00:51:07: there's probably a lot but then that is very helpful.

00:51:13: Wow...

00:51:15: Philip I think for a starter this So great.

00:51:19: Thank you for taking the time of your busy day again, we're only a couple of weeks away from The conference so there's lots and lots of things to do.

00:51:28: We just had a small chat before the recording.

00:51:32: thank you so much For being on the podcast.

00:51:35: Thank You so much for having me.

00:51:36: it was really a joyful experience.

00:51:38: also this podcast here

00:51:43: Wonderful.

00:51:44: And to all our listeners, well again enjoy revisiting this or other episodes of the series games podcast.

00:51:51: there's also lots ideas and inspiration on how games in playful encounters can be used.

00:52:02: I wish you a lot fun!

00:52:03: Here is the discount code for the series play conference Europe.

00:52:08: It will run from June, eighteen to nineteen.

00:52:11: but keep in mind there are many events scheduled also on the twenties and twenty-first so definitely worth staying over the weekend in Mainz!

00:52:20: And the discount code just when you check out your ticket type in seriousgamespodcasttwenty.

00:52:27: that's serious games podcast.

00:52:29: twenty till next time.

00:52:31: bye bye.

00:52:32: You can reach us at Hello at KeyLearning.net.

00:52:36: We're looking forward to your suggestions, comments and feedback.