00:00:02: Hello and welcome to the series games podcast all about playful methods for interactive trainings and facilitation.

00:00:10: Let's get started, and we'll come back through serious game spot cast.

00:00:14: well today in a practice this little bit I'm connected with two gentlemen sitting right now in DaVincier And that's in The Netherlands and they're in the building.

00:00:26: i understand there is three you know locations for the sexion university of applied science and I'm happy that i can welcome today.

00:00:35: uh hit it young and Edwin at The FOSS.

00:00:39: You're gonna walk us through now.

00:00:41: here's a thing, you gotta walk us to the management challenge!I totally understand but was struggling when preparing this meeting because um...you are doing so many gameful approaches in your learning journeys with not only inside university, but also beyond and hopefully maybe we'll carve out twenty minutes at the end that I can ask you a little bit about.

00:01:06: But first welcome to the podcast here in Edwin.

00:01:10: Thank You

00:01:12: Hmm, wonderful.

00:01:13: So where is the connection?

00:01:16: And when I know that you told me that the game was created in nineteen ninety eight and And when we were preparing for this podcast, you immediately mentioned HIDDIT.

00:01:37: That's because you co-facilitated this game at one point or taught the class that HIDDDIT is now teaching.

00:01:46: so I'm really happy to not only have let us say owner of the game but also a real facilitator in the same podcast and here...

00:01:56: Wait wait!

00:01:56: I am also a Real Facilitator.

00:01:58: out again?

00:01:59: over

00:01:59: real.

00:02:00: Actually, you are also a real trainer of the facilitators right?

00:02:05: Do we get into the business model of this simulation in a second but first walk us through.

00:02:10: In fact I will ask you two traditional questions what should our listeners know about You and how do you explain The management challenge up in thirty seconds for someone who's never heard About it?

00:02:23: my name is Edwin I live in the Netherlands, in Amersfoort and i call myself a Playful Management Consultant.

00:02:32: And one of them is The Management Challenge but also Topazja an episode couple months ago with Viro.

00:02:42: Also do the LEGO Serious play as you do Julien.

00:02:46: that's where we met in Bilhund in two thousand fourteen.

00:02:54: One of the products is the management challenge, which is a serious management simulation in which participants can experience what it is to be... ...the direction or the management of our company.

00:03:10: That's its management challenge in real short.

00:03:13: Wonderful!

00:03:14: Well thank you and yes a nod to Tapazia Viro and Juicy, I'll link the episode in the show notes.

00:03:25: Also very interesting game which i understand you are also using of course In The Class.

00:03:30: but now over to you Hitte!

00:03:32: What should our listeners know about you?

00:03:34: And maybe...I will just ask it a same question How do YOU explain management challenge To your participants that would get involved?

00:03:42: Yes, well I'm Hede.

00:03:46: I live in Deventer together with my wife and five children And a few years ago, I stopped teaching.

00:03:55: Actually, I'm a lecturer of safety and security management but I stopped saying that i teach instead play with my students.

00:04:05: The reason for this was first of all because I like to play very much But also as you can see...I was working really hard And my students were just comfortable and relaxed, but not learning very much.

00:04:19: At least I thought they could do more and they could learn a lot more!

00:04:23: That's when i stopped teaching and started playing... ...and that is also where I met Edwin because we were developing the business continuity management semester.. ..I was talking to several people among which Viro And I told him, uh...I was looking for something to do with Legos and i was also looking away from our students.

00:04:51: To experience what it is to lead a company because in business continuity management you want to manage your company under businesses not usual circumstances but if you don't even know the business as usual.

00:05:04: circumstances are then its really difficult.

00:05:10: That's where Edwin and I connected, well then one thing led to another.

00:05:15: And now for four or five years we've been facilitating this management challenge within the Business Continuity Management Semester.

00:05:24: Last year actually also the first year Edwin taught the Module of Business Continurity Management.

00:05:33: Because well, a colleague first of all.

00:05:36: A colleague went ill and then the second time our colleague was on maternity leave.

00:05:42: so good reasons for Edwin to step in.

00:05:47: very thankful that he has provided this facilitation experience to the semester as well.

00:05:55: Wonderful!

00:05:56: And how do you explain it?

00:05:58: So literally How did you introduce The class, I understand that this happens really early in the semester or their learning journey.

00:06:08: Is that correct?

00:06:10: Yes well it's actually one of the first weeks.

00:06:12: we already told them okay congratulations.

00:06:16: last year management team has been booted and now you're a new management team.

00:06:22: so um you're gonna run the company And you're gonna experience what it means to run a company and make the decisions.

00:06:31: You have time pressure, feedback from management reports... ...and then they need to decide or develop their strategy.

00:06:43: Hopefully stick with this strategy because that usually works best!

00:06:47: But then in the meantime, a lot of feedback gets provided and well they just experience it.

00:06:54: So we sent them their manual up front but not to read it entirely.

00:06:59: Just make sure that they know the context And that you can log into this system.

00:07:05: It's really intuitive

00:07:07: Correct, correct.

00:07:07: Okay I also received a manual.

00:07:09: i have to admit that did not fully read it but here's the episode so we can talk about it.

00:07:16: But um...I wanna go back into what you said and of course this is the series games podcast.

00:07:21: Of course we believe And I want to plus with just set on You know engagement part or how much work it is.

00:07:30: who's working in the room, right?

00:07:31: It was really learning and the room And so definitely yes with playful moments are just decision-making game more engagement More emotions.

00:07:41: I had just wrote down you also more real time feedback which which is crucial for learning and then Yeah Also more and more struggles.

00:07:48: write more decisions with means more failure Which leads into more i would say meaningful conversations and I really want to unpack this in this episode.

00:08:00: You're also bridged into the debrief, not just being a game but connecting that with topics you then teach.

00:08:11: He prepared a couple of questions on that.

00:08:17: so let's go back Before, in nineteen ninety-eight.

00:08:25: Maybe two hour lecture of where this game originated but maybe shortly.

00:08:31: how did you learn about the game and when?

00:08:34: And How Did You Get Involved?

00:08:36: Then Hida will ask you same question.

00:08:39: But then how do you make a thing in the semester that makes way more sense playing or inviting into simulation rather than me lecturing them?

00:08:51: The

00:08:56: management challenge was developed by Willem-Jan van der Veld, who is now retired.

00:09:00: He's in his eighties and when he developed the Management Challenge... ...he worked at Digital and made a product to buy out from Digital.

00:09:14: He started travelling with his wife and laptop during the simulation.

00:09:21: A lot of companies all over the world.

00:09:22: He traveled a lot, did it in Dutch but also English and German or French.

00:09:30: No problem for him.

00:09:31: But there was one problem.

00:09:32: according to my employer They met each other.

00:09:37: The problem is that he was only person who could deliver management challenge to clients Because they were on his laptop in an Excel.

00:09:49: Employer thought when we bring it to the internet, others can facilitate too.

00:09:54: And I have some person who studied business informatics.

00:10:01: that's me and make online environment.

00:10:04: so I made in two thousand five.

00:10:06: this is how i got involved And I started traveling with Willem Jan to clients and finding the fault in, in the code when something happened.

00:10:16: But after a while that system was stable.

00:10:20: so I started facilitating.

00:10:22: So that's how i started facilitating?

00:10:26: When he delivered a session After one-and-a half year or two years we changed roles.

00:10:32: We switched roles a lot of times.

00:10:40: And did that until two thousand ten eleven, I switched jobs and then Willem-Jan asked me and to others if we wanted to become owner co owners off the management challenge?

00:10:55: So We Did in Two Thousand Eleven and We Delivered A Lot Of Sessions Ourselves.

00:11:01: We Started Training Other Facilitators people like HIDA but also in other companies.

00:11:10: We do a lot of education at the moment, that's what we did until the start this year and then I got an opportunity to become the sole owner.

00:11:30: five we are currently working with and HIDA was the first person that used a new system in session as a facilitator.

00:11:44: So, this is how it started.

00:11:45: I started my playful management consultancy with the Management Challenge in two thousand five And later on i added other products mentioned.

00:11:58: Now the main product I think is, it's the management challenge.

00:12:03: Wonderful!

00:12:03: And when you say new version what does that include?

00:12:06: Are we talking about the whole setup of the logics and measures to decisions or gameplay in game mechanics... Or are they more set up?

00:12:17: how you onboard players or facilitators?

00:12:20: can you elaborate a little bit more on this?

00:12:22: The system.

00:12:25: So the old system has been replaced with actual tools, actual builds.

00:12:33: But most important thing is that the meshes in the manual for participants are now more actual so all ones have been replaced by things currently happening within our organizations at this moment of time.

00:12:52: Okay, all right.

00:12:53: We'll get into some examples in a second though.

00:12:56: Cool

00:12:57: and how about you?

00:12:59: I mean you mentioned okay You wanted to stop lecturing teaching and Inviting to play so that the engagement is level as just totally different.

00:13:11: But when you saw or what did you getting contact with with the game for the first time?

00:13:16: And then what was your experience where you really said, oh no I this is something i need in the first weeks of my course.

00:13:25: Yes well um originally it wasn't in.

00:13:28: uh in the First Weeks we moved to the front of the semester.

00:13:33: but let me go back just a little bit.

00:13:35: When we redeveloped the semester, I got together with several business continuity management professionals and asked them what they would like in this semester?

00:13:46: And one of things that said was well your students have an excellent theoretical grasp on business continuity managements but when you give them projects then don't know where to start.

00:13:57: so thought it should be another way around perhaps less firm theoretical grasp but know where to start and how to start.

00:14:08: And that's why we started looking for examples, making the students do more instead of learn more or get more theory.

00:14:31: business continuity management is something that most of the students are unfamiliar with at the outset of this semester.

00:14:40: And so they have to learn a lot about them, but they don't know yet about management nor normal managements.

00:14:50: They had done their internship as an organization.

00:14:52: So do you have some experience or what an organization how one organization works?

00:14:59: but definitely not at the executive level.

00:15:05: That was what I was looking for, and then i just got in contact with a lot of people that may help.

00:15:12: so eventually through Veroi met Edwin.

00:15:19: he told me about the management challenge Of course, gave me a demo account and then we just tried it as a group of lecturers.

00:15:32: And well, actually at first it was quite difficult because we thought... We do not want our company to grow very much and it grew too fast.

00:15:43: So that was difficult.

00:15:46: but when you know the margins where you can play then it works really well.

00:15:54: Got you.

00:15:55: Let's get into the gameplay in a second.

00:15:57: Okay, here's your Ninety seconds to explain to our listeners who've never heard about business continuity management And or the background of what frameworks are used.

00:16:10: How do you explain that?

00:16:12: In a nutshell of a nutshell

00:16:14: yes Okay, so I'll try really fast.

00:16:18: So business continuity management is what comes into play when your business as usual has disrupted and that means you cannot use normal procedures like have a budget or have plans in which to develop because this takes way too much time.

00:16:39: You need to respond quickly Um, um decision lines and you have to Yeah.

00:16:50: You have a lot more uncertainty and less time To get certainty.

00:16:55: So what do is well?

00:16:58: You actually prepare for the worst.

00:17:00: And uh, you ask What if-what If For instance our building burns down or Is unavailable for any other reason?

00:17:09: There may be A strike there maybe a ransomware attack.

00:17:16: And then we think about what could be do and all that's actually the management part.

00:17:23: Wonderful, wonderful!

00:17:24: Then I understand Edwin this game as it was developed and iterated and rolled out and played draws or uses well-established frameworks in industry to teach show to use while

00:17:45: it's built on a model.

00:17:47: the ENK management model is called in Dutch, The Dutch Quality Institute.

00:17:52: The English name is the EFQRM model.

00:17:56: your being foundation for quality Management.

00:18:00: You can make use of that model In.

00:18:04: you're used off the management challenge but not necessary To mention into the people playing the simulation.

00:18:14: So there is a proper base, it's... The measures are based on quality assessments that best managed organizations in the world part of the simulations set.

00:18:31: so There is a lot knowledge inside the model and inside the measures we make use off.

00:18:41: I'm a knowledge partner of the Dutch Quality Institute, so i make use most of time for quality model.

00:18:48: that's underneath game.

00:18:51: For example Hiddah is mentioning it but not explaining much about what the model and how you can accuse

00:19:04: him.

00:19:07: I think the main distinction that we use is you have to feed your organization and get results from it.

00:19:16: That's two parts of this model, broken down into more pieces but... ...the essence is you need a little bit more.

00:19:29: and get a little less results from the organization because then you have a healthy organization.

00:19:35: Otherwise, well if you squeeze your orange too much eventually there's no orange juice left in your organization.

00:19:43: That is one of the nice things... In Dutch variant it's organizational result but both half are the model.

00:19:52: In English version they're enablers with results To have results, to enable result when you make a sentence of it.

00:20:01: When participant learns that... That's one the learnings inside this game.

00:20:08: You'll do something in your organization and get the results out.

00:20:15: Okay, I can totally feel that.

00:20:17: Of course you two could talk weeks about quality management and business quality management but we all understand.

00:20:26: one is the lecture approach those off.

00:20:31: Actually, we might speed up the podcast to one point five save some time or We could get involved in the game.

00:20:38: so walk us through there The first ten minutes okay?

00:20:40: So I understand There is a computer somewhere and teams log on.

00:20:46: i understand you send out the manual.

00:20:49: What else do you need?

00:20:50: set-up And how does it start?

00:20:52: Can You Walk Us Through the First Yeah Ten Fifteen Minutes of the Gameplay

00:20:58: Before you start, you can set up a game inside the system and online environment.

00:21:03: And from each team one person can log into that environment too.

00:21:10: so they enter their own measures in the system... ...and see reports with results of what they have done on previous rounds

00:21:21: And team, this is not the whole classroom right?

00:21:24: Do you split up how big as a team for this simulation.

00:21:28: We recommend a team of four to six people so they have to decide on what are our measures for certain quarter when group is bigger than six it's too difficult to come up with proper set When two small decision making is too fast.

00:21:47: So far to six we do recommend.

00:21:50: So that's what you think of.

00:21:51: before use do the game.

00:21:53: Then there is the goal, What?

00:21:55: Do You want to achieve with a set of making use of the management challenge?

00:22:01: so when you are a lecturer in BCM That you can pick that topic.

00:22:06: but In other companies trainees are playing The Management Challenge.

00:22:13: We have a leadership professor that makes use of the management channels in his classes.

00:22:20: So you can do it, but that's what you have to think about upfront?

00:22:23: You have to thing about the groups.

00:22:28: your teams need computer or tablet and something to enter measures.

00:22:36: And when we start session You start as the facilitator and you're one of the members on board.

00:22:45: And, just fired previous management team because they didn't deliver.

00:22:50: now it's up to new management teams.

00:22:54: do better than a previous management Team.

00:22:59: We give them the manual I have over here.

00:23:02: It is booklet with thirty six pages.

00:23:06: thirty four pages instructions with the measures and all the information they need.

00:23:15: They can find anything in that manual, but I have to read it... But too much information to handle at a time when we give them to start their company for about forty-five minutes approximately to read the manual or come up with a fictional organization so they could decide themselves what kind of organizations are a bicycle, for whatever.

00:23:43: And they have to present that to the board.

00:23:46: so too you as the facilitator of the board.

00:23:49: this is where we are.

00:23:50: This is our mission vision proposition.

00:23:53: when they tell their strategy and They can Decide what their targets

00:24:02: or how

00:24:04: healthy?

00:24:04: Their organization isn't what the value of the organization will be at the end of the game.

00:24:10: Okay, and tell me do they get some sort of support to develop that company?

00:24:21: That's like really a broad question right?

00:24:24: so you could be anything!

00:24:25: You can do suites...you could do toilet paper..you could be railway station or start-up.

00:24:34: As long as you deliver services or products it is okay All right, and then you deliver also the maintenance

00:24:42: on

00:24:43: those products that you deliver in searches.

00:24:45: That's your liver?

00:24:46: Okay got here And I have two questions because you mentioned The teams.

00:24:52: so let's say i have three teams In my room.

00:24:55: yeah they don't play together Right there individual management team.

00:25:00: So every team gets to Have their own company.

00:25:04: Or is there some alignment?

00:25:06: Everyone

00:25:07: has their own company, and they are also not connected to each other.

00:25:10: But you can see in the dashboards or online environments how well... ...they do when they can measure it against others so that they're taking it up through the system but also into different teams within the room

00:25:27: Okay, but even though they might be in different fictional industries.

00:25:31: Right?

00:25:32: Yeah

00:25:33: okay one team does not impact the other teams or...

00:25:37: Okay wonderful.

00:25:39: and then here's my second question was you mentioned that facilitator acts as the board so to speak?

00:25:45: right?

00:25:46: Are they any other roles and how are the teams distributed?

00:25:50: All equally, I mean does everyone in team get a manual or is there only one printed version.

00:25:56: Do you need anyone who's interested to do measures?

00:26:01: How did they define it as up-to-them?

00:26:04: so when we decide that we have CFO and CEO and CRO and CMO That's Up To Them.

00:26:15: when they got every quarter that we play, you can play five years four quarters or twenty rounds.

00:26:23: Mostly what I see the facilitators do is playing two years and then start in year three and play Year Three and Four.

00:26:32: Then You Can Do A Session In Four to Five Hours And Every Quarter You Have Ten Energy Points.

00:26:42: All The Measures energy, so small measures to have one energy point and when you do a real big thing in your organization or something like reorganization are really project that costs five energy points.

00:26:59: Sometimes You see this team say we're with five people who pick two energy points but then there's not really set of measures that combine well with each other.

00:27:18: So let me pause you here for a second and rewind it little bit, okay?

00:27:22: So... Forty-five minutes set up I present my company all good And then it starts.

00:27:33: Okay What's the first thing they're invited to do With The Company?

00:27:40: Because as we mentioned You either start in the First Year of That Company or in the third year.

00:27:46: Well, what's the difference here?

00:27:48: It it you decide as a facilitate so that also before You start again how much time do I have or Do i need and How Much can i play?

00:27:59: What is necessary to Have The learning with the people playing the game?

00:28:06: When you want To Play two Years We recommend to start not in year one, but started in Year three.

00:28:17: And there's a reason for that and it is also part of the management model underneath the game.

00:28:25: There are five columns.

00:28:28: You start with getting information about your financial results When you know as new company.

00:28:38: This is what I earned.

00:28:42: That's okay.

00:28:43: in the first year that you start as a company, and then second year You get some more information than not The two last columns.

00:28:51: Then you have also the information about What are my customer results?

00:28:56: What are My employee results Etc.

00:28:59: And from your Year three You get some more information and you can learn more from that than when starting year one.

00:29:17: Okay,

00:29:18: understood.

00:29:19: To play in Royal Years please start Year Three.

00:29:23: And Hideo, how did all these informations get into the system?

00:29:26: So let's say I now create bicycles at my company as a team.

00:29:34: we're sitting on our table where are locked-in And now I get the information of the year three, so to speak.

00:29:40: But how do these details?

00:29:43: let's say...I would assume sales costs customers quality?

00:29:49: Of the organization.

00:29:50: is that randomized or Do you have influence on those numbers?

00:29:58: Well, the system provides feedback based on the measures that you take.

00:30:04: So as Edwin mentioned... ...you have ten energy points and all of those measures can cost a certain amount of energy point.

00:30:12: so what to do is select as your management team the measure that you want to take.

00:30:20: Okay, so for example I'm just looking at the list and maybe we can share a little bit more about those measures.

00:30:27: But you could... Support a partner or you can do get involved in some sponsoring, right?

00:30:34: Or you can Proclaim a hiring freeze.

00:30:37: Right.

00:30:38: so things like that, right You could reduce staff but you can also refine the policy.

00:30:43: So there's so many things and these are only just small ones, right Like content marketing data analytics

00:30:49: over hundred inside the booklet.

00:30:53: Okay How to make sense of that?

00:30:56: I mean it impossible way too understand All of them, nor to discuss the impact.

00:31:03: How

00:31:03: much time do I have anyway?

00:31:05: Well that's the situation you had as a management team especially if your just new to the company.

00:31:11: then... You don't understand very much about your companies.

00:31:15: so you know their results and some people are happy or unhappy.

00:31:22: And that's where you start and then upfront, your thought of your strategy.

00:31:28: The way we want to manage our organization... That is actually the key thing!

00:31:33: You have to stick with your strategies but there are so many distractors and things in the meantime because the measures they take You want to do the best for your organization, but sometimes measures are contradictory.

00:31:52: So there's after that... After you've taken the measures and you get feedback of course with a quarter delay because well you don't have real-time information in an organization But then you can see what you actually achieved.

00:32:08: so For instance if ten energy points, your efficiency maybe only eight energy points or it can be more.

00:32:18: That's also... It is more rare but you can have reinforcing measures But usually You lose energy because of contradictory measures that you've taken.

00:32:33: So I'm just thinking about what you said earlier, right?

00:32:36: so the energy points they are.

00:32:38: You got ten per round.

00:32:40: How long is around again a year?

00:32:45: Four quarters four rounds

00:32:47: Wonderful.

00:32:47: and how many minutes do i get to make that decision

00:32:52: as facilitator?

00:32:53: when we play with people who already working inside an organization then need more time because They know something about organizations and they think that the system works.

00:33:06: The same as organization, when you play it with students can speed up more.

00:33:14: so for example we do rounds of fifteen to twenty minutes per

00:33:23: quarter, got you.

00:33:31: And when you play it in inside an organization with people that have a lot of experience then uh...it's not uncommon to have thirty minutes or something like this.

00:33:42: Got ya because we want engage them also into conversation right?

00:33:47: When they've experienced after the first round and speed up little bit faster.

00:33:53: but Yeah, when we played it earlier this year here at suction with hitter.

00:33:58: It.

00:33:59: some teams were far too fast.

00:34:02: Okay okay and then what would look at?

00:34:05: you know how the tables or actually have to teams flow.

00:34:09: But here's one more question.

00:34:10: great going back to what you said earlier those ten energy points is literally What?

00:34:14: You are capable able the resources that you have

00:34:17: just a resource that

00:34:18: I have to do something in within the company right so that they

00:34:24: See it as the hours that you have available for your employees to work.

00:34:28: Okay, and also say The money or budget for that quarter.

00:34:32: but Thing with budget is that?

00:34:35: You can move budget from a quarter to the next quarter But that's not possible With time.

00:34:42: And that's all so being with the energy points.

00:34:45: in the management challenge You can decide to use only nine energy points or eight in a quarter, but those measure that those energy points that you did not use are not available to the quarter.

00:34:58: Yes?

00:34:59: Wonderful!

00:34:59: And then another

00:35:00: part of course is also that You can make them do overtime so you can allocate twelve energy points But that off course.

00:35:09: Then people are working twenty percent extra So it would be one day per week extra and Most people don't enjoy doing that for an entire quarter, let alone more than one-quarter.

00:35:22: All right.

00:35:22: so fifteen minutes are over.

00:35:24: I have to input my measures again and just put the numbers of...

00:35:30: You select them in online environment?

00:35:33: Okay

00:35:34: i select them yeah.

00:35:38: Then you push the Save button, so then input those and it's set.

00:35:48: You receive the management report of that or the quarter before?

00:35:54: Yes.

00:35:55: You're always

00:35:56: lagging one-quarter.

00:35:57: Oh my God.

00:35:58: yes!

00:36:00: Get feedback from the measures I entered.

00:36:02: The quarter before,

00:36:04: yes?

00:36:05: And after wait for the report of the men measures that just move

00:36:09: on with the next quarter and you can decide Yes, next quarter.

00:36:13: Okay,

00:36:14: okay.

00:36:15: And they do this again and Again but a understand especially when You also mentioned different time frames For their decision-making.

00:36:24: there's A lot Of conversations going On right?

00:36:28: It's all about the conversations that these are doing.

00:36:31: Yes, it is all about how they make their decisions?

00:36:35: Are they acting on information and receive management information?

00:36:41: but that old information or what do you decide to do in your strategy?

00:36:49: Yes!

00:36:49: How

00:36:52: does this affect them?

00:36:52: Is there a good interpretation of that?

00:36:54: because We only deliver the information about parts of the model that are currently in place.

00:37:03: So what I mentioned earlier, year one you have last columns and financial results.

00:37:10: In second years we had some more information but all your organization is missing.

00:37:16: do they see it?

00:37:18: Are able to think?

00:37:22: Can it be, can they decide themselves on how is our organization doing?

00:37:30: No look so many things are happening and obviously impacted by the decision right.

00:37:34: And again I don't want to get too technical in how you calculate them at back end of impact but Do you give the teams any guidance or do they come up with an idea of, oh my god we need to write down our assumptions.

00:37:54: We can never backtrack what we've entered and I would love for a screenshot that we could show on the podcast players.

00:38:04: so is there some sort of logical link?

00:38:08: Is it all in this report?

00:38:15: Video and podcast marketing.

00:38:17: that was a decision.

00:38:19: I asked my team to invest in that And now it didn't really fly because XYZ happened or is.

00:38:27: how does that work?

00:38:28: How do they make sense?

00:38:29: maybe this is already this question of You know, did we learn?

00:38:33: but i made the decision.

00:38:35: i get My feedback if makes sense or may not make sense for me.

00:38:38: at This very moment i have to discuss That after debrief And how do you support that?

00:38:44: Is there a retrospective, is it designated debriefing slot or... How did he do that.

00:38:50: You asked me what the five tips for facilitating management challenges are with quality and one of them I noted down was to let them struggle.

00:39:05: So when you are in play, so you have two different hats.

00:39:11: In the management challenge You have this head of facilitator and your hat as a knowledge person Of the topic that you want to discuss with them.

00:39:23: When you are a facilitator wait it will be asked because they learn From their struggle.

00:39:30: and when they think oh, I have the measures.

00:39:33: And i pick ten of them about ten energy points They are okay it's ok.

00:39:38: for me as a facilitator what happens will happen?

00:39:41: When they receive there first Management feedback then I walk or I always work around in room see what happened listen to what they are discussing an.

00:39:56: But I tell them all the time, I can only answer questions that you ask.

00:40:02: So i will never go to them and say uh...I see that you are doing this but you can better do that or why?

00:40:11: No!

00:40:11: I wait for it to be asked.

00:40:14: And then when we played a year Then there's the debriefing.

00:40:18: so I switch hats and pick the hat of The person who knows something about organizational change about business continuity management HR.

00:40:32: And I will dive into what they did and how that leads to results, or what they expected?

00:40:39: What are the differences between their expectations and really happened in there organization?

00:40:46: Okay so after a year There's really designated slot too.

00:40:51: then Add some theory hit right.

00:40:54: i mean it's not that you don't do any theory in your class right?

00:40:57: It's just and you have a different approach.

00:41:00: but here is my question.

00:41:02: What are you doing specifically?

00:41:05: doesn't really matter if its education or in the company, someone who's new to bcm write into those quality measures and making an decision maybe in the team

00:41:17: etc.,

00:41:19: If you see though in the second quarter, ooh.

00:41:22: It's not that they are getting it wrong but let say there is a dysfunctional way of interacting.

00:41:28: The team cannot come to conclusion.

00:41:31: They just enter some random numbers at the end of the quarter because time up right?

00:41:37: How much of a scare folding.

00:41:38: how much support do give teams struggling?

00:41:43: and maybe My second question is, which I just now forgot.

00:41:52: Let's start with that yeah how much of a support do you give if you see teams table groups struggling?

00:42:00: Well first of all they want to get it right because there are some sort of competitive element as well.

00:42:08: They would really like to win this challenge although experiencing necessarily winning.

00:42:17: So the only thing they can do wrong is not trying and I've not experienced that at all, there's no one who doesn't try!

00:42:29: And then when?

00:42:32: then they try to make sense of it.

00:42:34: So there's this, this organization is sort of a black box to them and they are trying to figure out how does this work?

00:42:43: When I pull this lever what happens?

00:42:48: but the main difficulty is that they only have information about the results part of the organizations.

00:42:56: so if they focus too much on Then they will manage the results part where they should actually be managing.

00:43:05: The internal part of the organization, but they don't know anything about that yet.

00:43:10: so That's something that they learn and we look into at end of first year.

00:43:16: So try to explain how quality model functions.

00:43:25: And well, it's quite intuitive to understand that you have to feed the organization a bit more than you draw from it because otherwise you will get an unhealthy organization.

00:43:37: and sometimes I do point out so did you notice for instance your measures?

00:43:46: they were not very much aligned?

00:43:48: Because for instance, four energy points.

00:43:53: That's a lot!

00:43:54: So can you see in your measures what might be the contradictory measures?

00:44:02: And well it is just asking them pointing to where something they could learn...

00:44:10: Yes, got ya.

00:44:11: and here my second question.

00:44:12: I remembered looking at my notes all the decisions that teams make and.

00:44:22: The results they produce, you can pick them up as a facilitator in this system right?

00:44:28: You could go back then see...

00:44:32: Yeah!

00:44:32: You COULD do that but it's.. As Edwin mentioned its about discussion.

00:44:38: they have so some teams making alot of notes seeing what measures they've taken But I'm not sure whether that's actually a predictor of success, whether or not you do it.

00:44:53: It is about the quality of discussion they have.

00:44:56: so if there would be only feeding several numbers of measures into this system and then say go... ...then that will not yield any results.

00:45:08: They need to have an expectation.

00:45:10: So they want manage something, achieve result And they pull certain levers at the organization and then something comes up.

00:45:19: Then, they have to make sense.

00:45:21: is it what we expected?

00:45:23: or where are our assumptions wrong?

00:45:27: Got you!

00:45:28: So let's dive into that moment.

00:45:29: okay I understand you played multiple quarters.

00:45:32: there was a deep briefing maybe even multiple years.

00:45:37: You weave in specific content pieces quality frameworks, maybe you can name a few more.

00:45:49: What is reflected?

00:45:50: And what do you invite the teams to reflect after that?

00:45:54: so they don't have the feeling oh we struggled!

00:45:57: We got it wrong right or now well...we did something but didn't work anyway.

00:46:02: So I'm trying find the sweet spot where.

00:46:06: say yes this really enhancing not only the capability of asking good questions, but then also really connecting those knots and understanding that we need to be prepared as BCM managers.

00:46:33: The business continuity management part is it only comes into play a little bit in the Management Challenge because this is about understanding how Business As Usual works.

00:46:46: Actually, two incidents taking place in the management challenge and you have to deal with those incidents.

00:46:55: Well, there's several options.

00:46:57: This all costs energy points and no matter what it cost energy points to deal with this incident.

00:47:02: Can you

00:47:03: spoil one at least?

00:47:05: What type of incident is something burning or something

00:47:07: I think we can spoil once?

00:47:09: so There's there's one about Forbidden agreements with your competitors And then you have to decide what you are going to do as a management team.

00:47:23: well Well, there's ethics involved.

00:47:28: There are practical issues involved and it is all about the discussion.

00:47:34: then they make a decision that may backfire later on or maybe its right decision.

00:47:46: Got you!

00:47:47: And what else do you reflect?

00:47:49: Again, in-game along the way but definitely also at the end.

00:47:54: What are your favorite... Yeah and for me it's like three things right under one hand.

00:48:03: of course The game presents topics It nudges you.

00:48:07: There is some agenda setting just how its built.

00:48:13: But then as a facilitator Edwin mentioned You're walking the room A lot right.

00:48:17: You pick up a lot of signal and a lot noise, but you know.

00:48:22: the question is what do you focus on?

00:48:25: Are there some patterns that youth think are helpful to be aware of?

00:48:31: And then of course I will ask you Yeah What are things at the players come up with?

00:48:38: they also have insights just not have on your sheet.

00:48:44: what is some, you know.

00:48:45: Not just surprising but really brilliant things or maybe some difficult thing that you had to help them cope with and make sense of even afterwards?

00:48:59: There are a couple of things I do see happening in the session so i walk around hear what they're discussing sometimes do ask questions to the teams.

00:49:13: But when I see differences, for example in the way one team is deciding and you compare it with other teams that are topics that you can dive into afterwards.

00:49:25: how decision making being done during game?

00:49:28: And How do you normally do that In your organization or as a group of students being done in the top of your organization, you're working on currently.

00:49:43: So that's one thing to do with debriefing.

00:49:47: The other hard thing is sometimes there are discussions about a measure and how it worked out for their organisation.

00:50:03: They thought that it was a decision, a measure completely on processes.

00:50:11: Fixing processes but there is no effect in processes.

00:50:17: That's sometimes discussion.

00:50:19: But then the game is the game.

00:50:21: So this where all other teams also have to deal with see it as a measure, and move on.

00:50:33: That's also why I always say to my facilitators what i do myself is build a fictional world.

00:50:42: don't play the real one.

00:50:44: so when you try your own organization or students please play Nike or Amazon.

00:50:53: then you try to find the measures that Nike is doing, but they are not in the booklet.

00:51:01: So please come up with your own fictional organization and it will always fit!

00:51:07: And those discussions aren't in-the game or... You don't have much of a discussion.

00:51:19: Yeah, you go first Evan.

00:51:23: it's not that we have that kind of discussions a lot.

00:51:26: It's one in Ten sessions or something like that.

00:51:30: so it's no that common that it happens.

00:51:33: but

00:51:35: Okay before I get into the you know The future behaviors and how to make this is sustainable learning experience Any other things that you observe?

00:51:45: Or debrief?

00:51:45: i mean Is it fun do they Do?

00:51:49: they discuss so heavily even after the game is done, right?

00:51:53: That you feel like oh my god we are now leaving.

00:51:58: Is it very emotional sometimes or surprising as there's some depression happening when... Just a little bit through what happens in the room.

00:52:11: How does it feel?

00:52:11: After one year, we let them look under the hood of the organization so there's something that is called the organizational eyes and that says something about development on all parts.

00:52:32: That's a lot more insightful for students.

00:52:35: And they can also see, okay so our measures did have effect just not on the things that were reported to us because we are new to the organization and don't know everything yet?

00:52:47: They can also in consecutive quarters whether they took out of their organizations or put input into their organization and so that's really helpful for them, also to focus on where to manage the next year.

00:53:10: And sometimes they also find out in first-year have been having a sort of whiskey trail.

00:53:17: So when you look back it is not straight line

00:53:27: Absolutely.

00:53:28: That probably

00:53:28: means that you've not been following your own strategy, but you have really focused on the feedback from the company.

00:53:37: Okay, Katja?

00:53:41: There's always a lot of energy in this room and one thing we see most often is what we call The Last Quarter Syndrome.

00:53:53: What was it again?

00:53:58: win the game and they decide on measures that are totally not in line with their strategy, then blow up.

00:54:07: Their organization we say a healthy organization is an organization where the organization is slightly bigger than the outcome.

00:54:15: so you have room to improve can become better when you get more out of your organization.

00:54:23: There's potential.

00:54:23: then you are.

00:54:25: That is the lemon squeeze thing, but a lot of organizations that try to win make an unhealthy organization in their last quarter and this is the last quarter syndrome.

00:54:39: And there was lots energy when it happens for an organization or also if they work out how they want them.

00:54:52: That's where they confuse project management to process management because there is no last quarter.

00:54:57: There's never going to be a last quarter for your organization, it's an ongoing process and that's something they take along.

00:55:07: Definitely always teams doing that trying to win the game in the last quarter... What else?

00:55:18: Yes yes so let us talk about debriefing shortly.

00:55:22: What else is our takeaways?

00:55:25: Again, I know there's so many contacts.

00:55:27: So many participants and rounds that you played but what are the things that you were looking for or maybe some of them you weren't looking forward

00:55:38: to?

00:55:38: There was one more parameter which i think really important.

00:55:43: The goal is to be as close to the ambitions that you have set at, at the outset.

00:55:49: So if you say we need an organizational health of let's say seven point five then you're supposed to arrive at seven point or really close.

00:56:06: and also for your organizational value, you have to come close.

00:56:15: You don't set your targets for nothing.

00:56:17: There's a reason they're over there, and if you overshoot your target that means... ...that you've probably had people working very hard because they have overachieved.

00:56:29: If they underachieve then you left a lot of potential untapped.

00:56:34: That is also not what you are supposed to do.

00:56:43: I mean, for me it's now wow this...I can see hundreds of things just accelerating a little bit that one could now debrief and carry on with.

00:56:55: then whatever happens next.

00:56:56: Maybe there is another game you couldn't definitely want to ask about other topics because he did like

00:57:04: the act

00:57:05: of setting your goal within itself full lecture.

00:57:11: That's like a full probably round of management challenge.

00:57:17: and to understand that, yeah as you said do we really want to quarterly change?

00:57:24: Do the OKRs or have midterm long term vision... The

00:57:32: difference between having strategy Do not do it that well.

00:57:41: Yes, and then you know how often I'm willing to change it?

00:57:47: And obviously what is the impact of changing either strategy or target?

00:57:54: What else do you just love?

00:57:58: focusing on maybe topics that are triggered but not so easy to resolve in a a couple of day workshop or even in the semester.

00:58:13: One one is part stuck in that role.

00:58:41: No, you can learn whatever your team is and what ever roll you pick You can decide self on that.

00:58:48: so for anybody playing the management challenge Anyone learns from playing the Management Challenge.

00:58:58: I think That's a good point For this simulation game.

00:59:04: Yes

00:59:05: Well, sometimes what you see is the division of tasks within an organization.

00:59:11: So their management team... Sometimes they have one person that's completely left out.

00:59:22: Well, it's not uncommon for that person to have the best ideas actually.

00:59:26: To manage a company... So sometimes we point out while doing this session so please listen to him or her.

00:59:38: I think they had some really nice input For you to consider.

00:59:46: And then well that there's tons of stuff to pull from.

00:59:55: At least in the Business Continuity Management Semester, what they have to understand is it difficult as a CEO or management team to lead an organization so you do have maximum impact but still your impact is limited because there's entire context for your organisation and you cannot influence everything.

01:00:17: So although you have maximum influence, still you cannot do everything.

01:00:23: And that sticking to your strategy is usually the best way to achieve consistent results?

01:00:31: Yes absolutely.

01:00:34: I can also imagine The the whole assumptions right that are never externalized and I've ever talked about like oh, I picked this because i thought xyz is a yeah well Why do you tell us?

01:00:48: That year later And not you know at the moment or what they when.

01:00:53: They see teams that have taken decisions, and then obviously they have the information to feedback that say half a year later.

01:01:00: And then this odd I wasn't really bad decision is like yeah but you're back in days where we made it?

01:01:05: We had totally different set of assumptions and we didn't know as much as we now about the org or the outcome or other measures.

01:01:14: Yeah

01:01:15: well thats actually part for another lecture That's were focus on Decision Quality.

01:01:23: So, how do you know whether or not you've taken a good decision?

01:01:30: What I want to end up with is that the students understand... ...that quality is in the decision process.

01:01:36: Not on the outcome of the decision because they cannot know it at the moment when taking decisions.

01:01:45: Very important absolutely!

01:01:49: I mean, we could probably now unpack for another hour all the learnings and whatever happened in the past.

01:01:56: I mean since nineteen ninety eight this game has been available.

01:01:59: um i have uh just to wrap up the gameplay.

01:02:03: okay so once The years are over?

01:02:06: I understand the management reports or artifacts.

01:02:11: Are they somehow printed out or saved easier anything that Um learners, the players take away to refer too because it really sounds like you could do out multiple semesters.

01:02:27: You can refer back to anyone who played The Management Challenge say oh by the way!

01:02:32: Do remember that's somewhat like making a decision in the last quarter and then finding

01:02:38: all of this information is available find their results later on, after a year when they log onto the system.

01:02:47: They can view it there.

01:02:50: that booklet is theirs so they can bring wonderful work space or where they want to have it.

01:02:59: So that's what we will receive.

01:03:02: We did printing in the past but was a lot of printing.

01:03:08: Not not good for environment In the new environment, it's all available online.

01:03:16: But when they decide to print that is also possible.

01:03:20: So actually I usually add organizational eyes For each quarter they've played... ...I send a group what their organizational eyes look like because then can compare under-the-hood and in terms of results.

01:03:40: But the main part is their evaluation.

01:03:42: So what did I think was going to happen?

01:03:45: And then, actually happens and... What does that tell me about how an organization works?

01:03:55: Wonderful!

01:03:57: Okay.. wanna go back to those not making moments, right?

01:04:09: Those debriefing moments.

01:04:14: Is there anything that surprised you?

01:04:15: I mean is it any thing what am really trying... Well the question that's pondering in my head.

01:04:22: Right how do make a work?

01:04:24: There are so many things happening In the room and tables The debrief conversations going on.

01:04:31: You have obviously your workshop your session goal.

01:04:37: What other tips can you give our listeners who are working with playful encounters, decision-making games, conversational games to select noise from signal?

01:04:54: To stay sane in a room where we're energy?

01:04:59: and how do you survive that environment

01:05:02: here?".

01:05:03: Well, I think what's needed for you as a facilitator is the goal.

01:05:11: What do you want to accomplish and only coach on that goal?

01:05:20: At least in the Business Continuity Management Semester?

01:05:22: it's about learning how business-as-usuals are conducted within an organization at management level.

01:05:29: so this is something we need to understand And that's all I'm going to feed back.

01:05:35: So, iIm not gonna go into any other things that I encounter only on that.

01:05:43: Got you!

01:05:45: What other tips are there?

01:05:48: That you wanted to share?

01:05:52: You know walking the room... I noted it down having the goal

01:05:57: at trust a process.

01:05:59: We have a process that you can make use of and change it.

01:06:03: with the timing.

01:06:05: The timing for this game is... You start at the beginning, about forty-five minutes then play a couple rounds with debriefing Then play another round with perhaps another briefing or transfer in the end to the game.

01:06:24: You need to trust those processes on anything that happens.

01:06:28: Yeah, you have to be keen on that so that you can make use of that in your debriefing and in your transfer.

01:06:35: In the end That's one of them I already mentioned.

01:06:42: let them struggle And wait until we asked Because when they ask then there are ready for learning.

01:06:51: Then you can discuss it.

01:06:52: When you just say oh that is answer.

01:06:57: They didn't learn anything.

01:07:01: And there's indeed, a lot of energy in the room.

01:07:04: so that's nice.

01:07:06: but it is also one thing I find difficult and facilitating... The setup for this situation?

01:07:19: That's a difficult part!

01:07:20: But once you've set up Then it's usually easy.

01:07:22: So you do not have to have very much preparation because, You know what your going to do?

01:07:28: But then the session itself is so packed with energy and things happening that... Well at least I was happy that Edwin joined several times Because when there are more eyes in a room to the various groups.

01:07:50: You have more perspectives, so Edwin sees different things than I see... So that's something you can easily do and it helps also bring confidence to colleagues when they witness you doing this and then they need themselves afterwards!

01:08:13: It is a great way of training other colleagues as well.

01:08:17: Yeah, wonderful.

01:08:18: Yes because let's get into that who can run it?

01:08:25: I mean yes you mentioned the other colleagues now.

01:08:27: so here evening at quite some time and then i understand your co-facilitated a quiet sometime even.

01:08:35: What what is business model behind of management challenge?

01:08:39: And how does it work?

01:08:41: Because I

01:08:46: think its easier from a customer's perspective.

01:08:49: So when i first contacted Edwin, he set up the demo account for me.

01:08:55: so He gave one credit.

01:08:57: that means you can play with one team and one credit is one hundred euros.

01:09:02: each team needs a credit.

01:09:03: It´s really simple model if your playing three teams to pay three hundred euro.

01:09:08: if you play with eight teams, then you pay €.

01:09:13: It's money well spent I can say but the first time that you get a demo account for free and try it out with your own colleagues or any group that would like to do so afterwards.

01:09:36: what did you think happened?

01:09:40: How can I help you?

01:09:42: But it's really easy to set up.

01:09:45: You select a game, the number of teams and invite people in this system... It cannot get any easier than that!

01:09:55: And also if a team does something wrong then you could easily put them back have their input again, and so there's no... I don't think the gameplay can improve very much.

01:10:18: It

01:10:19: is really easy!

01:10:24: Well, I don't know about Edwin of course and the business model behind it.

01:10:29: But as a customer is really simple... ...I have so many teams that need to pay for so many accounts.

01:10:39: If i exaggerate this game costs me half an hour probably only cost me ten minutes to set up again.

01:10:45: Got you!

01:10:46: And then you already mentioned, I think you made very clear in last hour that whatever context, learning objective you have in mind when you are using the management challenge.

01:10:57: I mean obviously YOU ARE THE KNOWLEDGE OWNER FOR THAT!

01:11:00: Right?

01:11:00: So so you have to bring the topics to set up and of course the participants then that you invite to play on.

01:11:09: You have to do something in organizational development And it's really broad The HR Business Continuity Management Quality Management.

01:11:18: When you do something in organizational development and have some experience with facilitating, then you can make use of the management challenge.

01:11:29: So when you are an inexperienced facilitator... Then we need to get some facilitation skills.

01:11:39: but if there is some skill that I could help you making use of for your specific Goal for your specific topic.

01:11:49: Wonderful, wonderful!

01:11:51: And of course I'll link everything that again someone would need to know before getting in contact with you and also your contact details not only yours Edwin but your data.

01:12:02: just invite everyone To reach out.

01:12:05: if you have additional questions You can also reach up to me then forward it.

01:12:10: So all good.

01:12:12: Wow Looking at the time right and i'm i don't really wanna ask but i plan to ask what other things you are doing in terms of.

01:12:25: Keeping energy emotions learning high then a lecturing understand that there's this variety as he mentioned it when at the beginning anything i see, The full list, there's so many other games from simulations and Lego series play but also a Lego simulation.

01:12:46: There is crisis management in Topazia... This can be found on the show notes And then it's more than one episode we must record.

01:12:59: It was so

01:13:00: cool that he did this semester for BCM.

01:13:05: All those games, when he had asked me if I could step in giving lectures...I would have said no.

01:13:14: but now with all the games that are part of it is so cool!

01:13:20: The simulation that Lego Construction Company has been playing for six months making a business continuity plan Fixing your organization and that for the full semester.

01:13:32: That's so cool.

01:13:33: I don't know an example of that anywhere else.

01:13:38: Maybe, um make my i will scale My last question my last two questions up a little bit.

01:13:44: So Um and then I asked both of you?

01:13:47: So what's the secret sauce?

01:13:49: not Of the management challenge but decision-making games or gamified approaches, serious games.

01:13:59: What's the secret sauce for you?

01:14:00: Why do they work in the way that they

01:14:03: do?".

01:14:04: Because they experience it themselves and can make a decision themselfs then its theirs.

01:14:11: so not me.

01:14:12: as I consulted when i started my career writing down handing over ended up somewhere where they didn't use it.

01:14:23: Yes, what's your take?

01:14:28: It makes evaluation possible because you do not only see the analysis or advice that you give but actually implement stuff.

01:14:37: and in the LEGO construction company, I asked them for goals up front.

01:14:48: So how many houses are you going to build?

01:14:52: Will your build them all right the first time?

01:14:55: when will The First House be delivered?

01:15:08: And then they can just see what happens with the measures.

01:15:10: They've implemented and whether or not Dave achieved their goal, and then reflect on that.

01:15:16: an improve from on there measures?

01:15:20: Well it's really nice because they are actually doing work.

01:15:25: The energy is high.

01:15:26: you see ice shining all the time which is quite uncommon in a normal lecture.

01:15:35: Yes, yes.

01:15:35: And then again you know it's like always sounds okay they're doing your work right or let them struggle and their own decision etc.

01:15:43: but literally learning is a word I mean do have to depending on the philosophy that did you like follow?

01:15:52: But you have to construct it.

01:15:53: You need understanding processing something, right?

01:16:00: And as we know emotions help and obviously a knowledge mentor in the room giving feedback helps.

01:16:05: Yes if it's game or system can also give you feedback.

01:16:08: where management report that helps too!

01:16:10: There is probably lots of feedback then from your table group...

01:16:16: They really feel time pressure.

01:16:17: so when a crisis hits their organization okay.. We have to manage the crisis now.

01:16:25: let us come together team, see what is actually taking place.

01:16:31: What could we do?

01:16:32: What stakeholders do we need to contact?

01:16:34: and also you don't want to fail in front of the entire group.

01:16:40: so these are your classmates and show them that they have come prepared.

01:16:46: but it's not like you can fail.

01:16:49: The worst thing would happen if a fictional company goes bankrupt.

01:16:54: Then you know, okay.

01:16:54: This was not the right option But still you take learnings away from that.

01:17:01: and well You have to be prepared.

01:17:08: when you manage the crisis in The final stages of the semester You don't want to be surprised.

01:17:16: Oh who takes what role?

01:17:18: How shall we take this decision?

01:17:22: That has passed, so we pass all these stages of managing business continuity and then they improve.

01:17:29: And

01:17:32: it is

01:17:33: really

01:17:33: cool

01:17:33: to see how those pieces of the puzzle with games and simulation things fit together in the end game for this semester.

01:17:43: also that the management challenge fits into the whole puzzle.

01:17:49: Oh, absolutely.

01:17:50: And I didn't hear you say you're not doing any theory.

01:17:52: is just that it's a totally different way right?

01:17:57: Of course we do theories so we have the good practice guidelines which are collected with them of all business continuity professionals in the world.

01:18:06: So we do provide our students with those and well We ask then to read up front.

01:18:13: some don't.

01:18:19: They experience what it means to be prepared for the lecture or actually, its more like workshops.

01:18:27: So there is of course some knowledge component but not in this workshop because something magical needs to happen.

01:18:38: There needs to be a need for me and the students, and the physical location of all us who come together... And if one is not present then that's going to be no workshop!

01:18:52: Yeah I feel you on it.

01:18:55: Wow, I think our time is over.

01:18:59: Even though it feels like we could continue and do three episodes out of one recording.

01:19:04: but here's my little final question... Is there anything that you have not talked about in terms of something to share with your listeners?

01:19:13: Or

01:19:15: the management challenge was available as i said at the introduction in German & French not anymore, because I'm not able to facilitate it in those languages.

01:19:26: But if any one of the listeners wants to bring again into German language or French language please get in touch.

01:19:36: Reach out

01:19:36: to you?

01:19:37: Okay wonderful!

01:19:38: Yes yes so... Any additional languages specifically French and for Germany?

01:19:43: Any language can be added but especially these two.

01:19:46: they were in their first versions Yeah.

01:19:54: And I would like to say that some students, they think it's childish to play with Legos and then usually these are the persons taking themselves too seriously.

01:20:06: so And that's really keeping you from learning.

01:20:12: So actually last year, we've witnessed this in Edwin's class and at some point I was also in the classroom... ...and they asked me the same questions as they already asked Edwin!

01:20:25: And then unsurprisingly gave us the same sort of answers And then they turned themselves on, and actually made so much progress.

01:20:34: It was really fascinating to see how far they've gotten!

01:20:40: So I think this is about the balance of taking yourself seriously... ...to come prepared but also not take your self too seriously.. ..so allowing yourself fail to make mistakes and be okay with that.

01:20:55: Wonderful To both of you, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us tonight.

01:21:02: Thank you Julianne and thanks

01:21:04: for having us!

01:21:07: To all our listeners, have a look at the show notes.

01:21:09: Again there's other episodes that we mentioned and lots of things to go down the rabbit hole in learn more about BCM and quality frameworks.

01:21:20: but then also don't forget contact Edwin not only for their languages but if you've any additional questions.

01:21:26: same is true for him and me.

01:21:28: till next time bye-bye.

01:21:36: We're looking forward to your suggestions, comments and feedback.